Diving into energy demand and a deep look at India for American interests - Jordan Fife

Hey everybody. I'm Paul Yeager This is the MToM Show podcast to production of Iowa PBS and the Market to Market TV show. Today, we are going to get into a topic that has been coming up more and more during our Market Analysis segment as well as Market Plus, it is about the country of India. Is it an emerging market? Is it a market that the United States can count on to ship Great? Well, we'll ask a person who was just there. And his business is trading seems like a perfect combo and also seems like a good time to bring back one of our guests. That's Jordan, Fife. He's based in the Houston Texas area, he just went to Houston, or he went from Houston to India, and we learn a little bit about that trip. But Jordan is the president of trading for Biourja, which is a company that's actually owned by a group in India. So we'll find out about those relationships, and what he has discovered from a set of American eyes when he is there. So that is our topic today. We hope you enjoy this episode, like all the others that comes out on Tuesday. You're an interesting follow on X or Twitter, whatever you want to say, you're in a very tech industry, but you also have some old school charts. I love looking at numbers. You've been in the energy, you're in the energy business, but there's been some energy charts that have caught your attention recently. What are they?

Jordan Fife: Yeah. Thanks for having me, Paul. Appreciate it. One of the things that I like to do is go back in time and look at world events that are similar to the current events that are happening. And obviously, the big one that is shaping energy right now is the conflict in Israel. What does it mean? If we look back? And how do we extrapolate that in the future, and the two most similar conflicts that we've faced in recent times are the first Iraq war and the second Iraq War? If you look back on the first Iraq war, which was in 1990, we had an increase from $17 to $40. And some of that was almost overnight, it happened very quickly. The second Iraq war in 2003, and 2004, it happened on a longer timeframe to increase, but we had a 63% increase in oil. So you look at that and say, what's it mean for us? Now, we're sitting at about $81 per barrel of oil. So if you increase between 43 and or 63%, you're looking at like $133- $130 per barrel of oil. And then what does that mean? On the street, to the people who are buying gasoline at the pump, it means like a $4 Something handle, depending on which state you're in, and how the taxes work, and everything like that, which would obviously be bad for the economy, which would be bad for all things considered for the United States. So we're trying to figure out how big is this conflict going to get? What is its reach? And that is what I think most energy traders are focused on right now.

[Yeager] One of the big firms not an energy firm, but a trading firm right after the invasion, or the bombing started, was oil is going to go well over 100, in just a short amount of time, didn't happen. Do we have a different world supply than say we did in 1990, 91, then 2003-2004, then what we have in 2023. And that's maybe why the market didn't respond as violently? 

[Fife] So specifically, if you look at the United States, right, there's two different oil indices that most people follow. There's WTI. And there's Brent, West Texas, intermediate, and Brent, which is off the North Shore of Scotland. And those two can react differently, depending on what the world events are. But we're gonna focus real quick on WTI, West Texas Intermediate, back in 1990, and everything like that we were importing 24 25% of our oil from Saudi Arabia, from Venezuela, you know, countries like that fast forward to currently, and the United States is the largest oil producer in the world. That's a fact that just gets lost on people for some reason to one that the United States doesn't do a great job. And I'm not going to if you follow me on Twitter, or X, or whatever you call it, I don't like to get into politics, I really don't. But if you're a Republican, you don't want to say that we're the number one producer of oil, because that means that you know, we've done a good job of producing, they like to say drill, baby drill. If you're liberal, you don't like to say we're the world's largest producer of oil, because it's a bad thing because we're, we're digging in the ground, and we're doing all this bad stuff to the environment. So both sides, the United States really doesn't toot their own horn. So that is one of the major differences between back then. And now we are the number one oil producer on top of that, as I previously mentioned, we were importing 24, 25% from Saudi Arabia, another 15-20% from Venezuela. We don't do that anymore. The number we import from Canada, number one is 60%. And then another 10%. From what countries we import from is Mexico. So 70% of our income words are coming from neighboring countries that we're extremely friendly with. So the WTI portion of the oil equation is vastly different. And then on a world front again, you're going to get into different flows and everything like that pipelines, how they've been built, treaties that have been signed, it's just a very different world. However, Brent will be more affected, Europe will be more affected, Asia will be more affected by these wars, in the very short term, overall, the rising tide will lift both boats, the spread between WTI. And Brent can only get so wide. But I think that's probably in the short term, what's going to happen more as the brick will rise more and relative than the WTI.

[Yeager] I also think of WTI of the challenges of finding new sources in the United States, that has, we've looked at North Dakota and in the Bakken region. And I'm not saying it's empty, but it's less than an influence that it once was. And then you have energy policies from the White House right now that are on the green front. But as you said, we're getting a lot of oil into this country. And we're also with trading partners, a lot gets talked about on this program about China. But it's really, it's really the North American countries that we trade and do a lot of business with, you're really close to Mexico, where you're at closer than I am, I'm closer to Canada than you are our relations, the same when it comes to oil when it does two commodities, like beef cattle, and corn and soybeans.

[Fife] Yeah, I mean, there's obviously some pretty big differences there. When you do deal with oil, but the oil sands out of Canada are that we need us as a buyer, we need them as a supplier, it is a very symbiotic relationship. There it differs slightly, and I don't need to tell you or a lot of people in your audience, how that differs for commodities, like soybeans, or corn or anything like that. I mean, we have South America sitting just to the southwest, right, and they are a constant presence and just producing more and more agricultural products every single year. They're in their growth phase. And they're looking for a home and one of them is North America, and our trading partners, which you know, is Canada and Mexico. So it's more of an intrusive from the agricultural standpoint coming in from the south. Whereas there the supplier, Mexico and Canada to the United States. And we're the buyer, and we hold a lot of cards. Also the dollar is the driver of this oil trades and the dollar, which helps us a lot in a lot of scenarios. So it is different in that they need to sell to us.

[Yeager] Your bosses aren't going to hear this. Have we hit peak oil in the United States? Our conception of it, our consumption?

[Fife] If not, we're within you know, an earshot of it. And but that's not really that big of a deal. I really don't think it is you don't we're not going to go no, I don't, I don't because I mean electrical wise, it's not going to make sense to go all electrical for while I am in Texas, as you noted, as you guys remember, we all froze a couple years ago and our grid went under, we are an independent grid, the Texas grid is completely independent of the United States, which is a unique thing unto itself. But if you use that as an example, our infrastructure has to be massively increased to to increase electric vehicles to a point of which it's over 10% 15% the numbers just aren't there. You know, I had one friend of mine that worked at a gasoline car, he doesn't work at a gasoline station, but he worked for a large gasoline station company. And he told me that one of the Porsches, the electric, all electric Porsches, if you come in peak hours to fill that thing up from zero, it takes more electricity to fill that thing up from zero to full than it does to generate all of the power and to put the entire gas station. That's all the pumps, all the refrigeration, all the air conditioning, every other thing that powers this massive gasoline station, that one Porsche will draw more energy off of the grid. So that really doesn't bother me that much. As far as peak oil consumption goes, our cars are getting more efficient. There are hybrids out there, I honestly think the hybrid model is probably better than the all electric and the internal combustion engine will not cease to exist in North America within the next, you know, within our lifetime. But when I look at Asia, and I look at India, and I look at those places, India has 1.4 billion people, the point four is larger than the entire United States. And they're industrializing at a rapid rate. There's going to be a home for hydrocarbons that come out of a refinery. So what that means, really, in my opinion, and it's already happening, but I think it's going to increase the United States will be further and further into exporting hydrocarbons, whether that's diesel or gasoline to the rest of the world. We have an extremely efficient refining capacity and system down in the Gulf of Mexico, all the way from Louisiana all the way over to Texas. And it's set up to do that. And again, I've imported and export Get it out of South America, it's just easier to do it out of North America out of out of the Gulf of Mexico.

[Yeager] We, though, haven't built a new refinery in the United States and decades, and are there any new ones coming online? Or are we just getting more efficient? Operations?

[Fife] I think it's the latter. And, you know, I've heard that obviously, we've all heard that we haven't built a refinery and X, Y, and Z. And it's true. But we've retrofitted a ton. We've put new hydro-treators, hydrocracker hydro crackers, in a lot of places, and we continually have to keep up and improve the efficiency of these refineries. That being said, eventually, you're going to have to rebuild some of these. I don't know when that will be, I don't know. It's going to be very hard, whatever administrations and I mean, even if you know, more, right, leaning, easier to get things done in the Gulf of Mexico type of politicians, even then there's going to be somebody that holds out for something. It's just hard to do right now. 

[Yeager] It's like a beef processing or a hog processing plant. Nobody wants it in their backyard, even though it might be needed for more stability. Ethanol wise, where do you see that fuel fitting in, in this discussion of what you're talking about globally? And domestically?

[Fife] So that's a big question right now. And one that depending on who you ask, it's either really good or really bad, right? I tend to lean to really good. And the reason why is because of what we're seeing in the renewable diesel space. We're seeing all this investment all these back to hydro cheaters either crackers, you've seen all these major oil refiners getting into the space of renewables, which is encouraging us to feel like they're kind of the foe, even though they're the biggest. Their biggest customer of renewables was the big oil companies, they kind of seem to infer for the right reason, you know, that you walk in and someone says 10% of your demand is gone, and it's going to go to this new product. Understandably, they're going to want to try to fight for that 10%. But now they're kind of rowing the boat in the same direction with this renewable diesel. They're buying soybean oil, they're buying fats, they're getting Talos. They're getting the oil there. There's corn oil, they're getting into the space of renewables. What does that mean for ethanol? Sustainable aviation fuel is the next logical leap and sustainable aviation fuel right now, there is a push to use ethanol as a feedstock for sustainable aviation. If that were to pass, we're off to the races. This is a whole new market to tap into, which would really help ethanol.

[Yeager] And that's what I've heard, both said on our show by different folks who have come in from the Ag side commodity side who see that as a possibility, also the administration, Secretary Vilsack has made a big push in 2023, about sustainable aviation fuel.

[Fife] We're still you look there, Biden's they have committed to it. Yeah, there you go. Look, Southwest Delta, they've all signed things by blank, we're going to have X amount in our and there's only one way to do that. It's policy. And it's working with people. And it's guaranteeing that in these emerging markets in these small study startups, not rather small, quite large, that there will be a need for it next year, you can't put all your money in and expect to get it back in one year. It takes years to recover these billions and billions of dollars that they're going to be putting in. So you need an administration, whoever it might be, as friendly to that and says, Hey, we're gonna be there for the next couple of years to make sure you guys get it off the ground. No pun intended.

[Yeager] Either way, it works. pun works, they take off your employer, your checks come, you have a lot in India, you were just in India, I want to talk about that. When you mentioned emerging markets, we always talk about China, where does India fit into this discussion right now?

[Fife] From an energy standpoint, yes, I was just in India and I did, there are 1.4 billion people there. And I was in Delhi for a moment and just seeing Delhi is like 34 million people. It's incredible. And Mumbai was there for a moment. It's like 35 million people. The state that Delhi is in is over 200 million people. And it's like one and a half times the size of North Carolina. It's not a big place. There's so many people there. So obviously that means if they all start driving, there's huge demand there. They all start eating more protein. So there's huge demand there for agriculture and everything like that, even though a lot of India is vegetarian. There's other ways to get it in there. But they are emerging in a way that I think China has already happened. They're in that first wave of true industrialization over the last 10 years, how much they've invested in infrastructure and highways to link Mumbai and New Delhi and all that. It's truly incredible to see. And then from an ethical standpoint, obviously they only import industrial right now they do not import fuel grade if that were to ever change that is the silver lining to every ethanol producers cloud right now. If India were to step in and say we want more FL It would be a game changer. China used to import more and now they're building their own ethanol plants. Currently, India has ethanol plants, they make it from molasses from sugarcane. But it's just they don't have the infrastructure to do it. They could take more tomorrow. Modi, their Prime Minister has also increased the amount of ethanol they do take into their cars. They're not hitting it right now. But the fact that they're trying to do it is encouraging. So either one of two things is gonna happen, in my opinion, one, they eventually say you can import fuel or two, they say, Hey, could you come help us build these things and show us how to run them? Either way? I think it's going to be good for the US.

[Yeager] How long have a good for the US? I mean, you talk about a five year a 50 year scenario there.

[Fife] I don't think India has done growing. So really, the question is, how long will they keep expanding, and I think they'll continue to do that for the next 20. So 20 to 30 years. Now, if they can industrialize that much, and they do grow sugarcane and everything like that, they could potentially start making their own. So it just depends on the industrialization, you're going to need it near their populous areas, you're going to need to build these plants in and around Mumbai, New Delhi, Hyderabad, where there's major metropolitan areas to make a dent, or they need to increase their, their ports cities to take in more and build takes, it'll take some investment from somebody, but somebody's gonna get it right and probably make a ton of money.

[Yeager] Infrastructure, to me is always one of those big debates and challenges for India, what is it going to take for them to rapidly excel in improving roads, ports, plants, everything that's needed to get to this plan? How quickly and what's their stomach and tolerance for it? I,

[Fife] From what they have shown in the last 10 years, it seems like they have the stomach for it again, you know, just the vast improvements in India, in the last 10 years, is pretty shocking. And it's kind of rudimentary to you and I, the United States, everything like that. But from where they have come to where they have gone. And again, just the last decade is truly astonishing. And Modi seems to be driving it pretty well right now. I think that they you know if they can get access to cheap money is is no longer I think that's the biggest hindrance right now, if we can get the World Bank's back to a reasonable level, I think what they showed us over the last decade, they'll continue in very, very similar fashion, but more democratic than than China. And again, as an ally, they are a strong one, they are the largest democracy in the world. And that's something that we should be as the United States, no matter who's at office, pushing for this is a huge buyer of things. They're blessed with a lot of things. And India's Modi likes to say resources is not one of them. They need to come from somewhere 80% of their energy is important. Right now that's been filled by Russia and Saudi Arabia. If we can intervene there in the way with hydrocarbons, or whatever it is, that would really go a long way, I think to find that relationship.

[Yeager] But as an India, just looking for the cheapest option. Forget we all geopolitical well, but we are too but some of those decisions are challenged where like, I don't know if I want to buy from that country.

[Fife] I mean, if you look at Elon Musk, he's figured it out, right? I mean, where's mining for all this stuff come from? He lets another intermediary get in there. And then he buys it from them. And it doesn't look like he's doing it. There's ways around it. I mean, water always finds its level, right? And if somebody is willing to wear the risk for you, you have to pay him for it. But at the end of the day, yes, India has decided to buy the cheapest, and he can't blame. I mean, they, they have an opportunity here to increase their margins to shorten the gap a little bit. I mean, they took it and there's no laws against it. There's been talk of embargoes and everything like that, but you don't want to make a tense relationship with somebody when you're trying to get these relationships off the ground. So I think there's still a way in there. But yes, until there's, there's until we run out of cheap Russian oil, they're probably gonna keep taking there's no way around that.

 

[Yeager] So it becomes a competition just like we always hear in grains, whoever's the cheapest is going to get the business. He is going to abide by that rule. So in that sense, they are like the United States. Yeah. Sorry, geopolitical wise. What? America is not the only one that knows what's going on there and can look at the numbers of India. So what are you hearing about Russia's interest in maybe their ways in India or China and their ways in India and if we fund bankroll some of these things, where's Modi have to sit? Where do the people have to sit in that country to understand who's influencing and trying to influence decisions?

[Fife] Wow, that's, a great question. You know, Modi, has met with, I think both Donald Trump and you Joe Biden now I know he met with Trump, Trump went over there and Modi came over here. I don't know, if Biden has met with him yet. Definitely needs to have, he hasn't. But again, their democracy at the end of the day, and they are a very active democracy, like their voting turnout is like 98%. It's incredible. I don't think they're gonna go the way of fascism and dictatorship. And I just don't think that suits them. However, if they're willing to do they have showed that they're willing to do business with those type of countries. And again, they are kind of on an island over there, they're in Asia, you know, a lot of people forget that it's Asia, and Asia is right next to the Middle East, and it's right next to Russia. So that's going to be the cheapest supply. I think they're more opportunistic than they are leaning that way politically. It then becomes the United States job to offer them an alternative that, if it's not cheaper, is palatable. And if we can't do that, well, then I don't expect them to really follow through with any trade with us.

[Yeager] Do you see India importing more of our goods? Or our insight on goods? You talked about improving refineries, things like that? That's what I mean. Yeah,

[Fife] I think the insights are probably the easier way and and look, you know, if you look at America right now, the way it's trending tech is kind of one of our biggest exports, right. And that's more idea based than it is goods based, you know, we've kind of shifted a little bit from, from raw materials and everything like that, you know, to a more tech related economy. So I expect that that will continue to follow through. And it's an easier one, right, the goods is a harder one, like we talked about, India doesn't need to improve their ports, they cannot intake and more if there's a bottleneck, so they need to work to the bottle with that, once they do that, I think there's a very good opportunity, again, to have some sort of trade agreement with them. Since they are again in Asia, that 's a natural drawl to China. But China is not really a huge exporter, either, you know, they're, they're a large importer, as well. So it really comes down to Russia and into the Middle East. And that's going to be more oil based to begin with. As far as agricultural products go, I mean, in South America, they're going to try to draw off as much as they can, and then do as much as they can domestically. But I was there, I drove around the country, I went to several farms, they've got a long way to go a very long way to go. I mean, they really are still doing like water buffaloes and plows. That's not facetious at all. That's just the way it is right now in a lot of places over there. candles and flowers, I saw it with my own two eyes, herds of sheep, in the middle of a highway, grieving the middle of it, that they paid them to do. So again, it's got a long way to go. But if there is an alternative, they're very willing to listen to it. It just has to be within their budget.

[Yeager] Do can their farms catch up rapidly? Do they have enough land that would allow them to maybe do some things internally in their country and not have to rely on imports from other countries importing countries.

[Fife] They’ve got a lot of land, I drove from New Delhi to Agra, which is where the Taj Mahal is, it's like a three and a half hour drive, there was nothing between it, there was just farmland, that's all of us, you know, for three and a half hour drive, and again, they they have land, once you get further north to get into the the Himalayas, you're not going to grow anything there. But when you get further south, there's plenty of land, however, it then becomes water conservation, and how much they're drawn. 1.4 billion people really do draw a lot of water. And on top of that, they have a pollution problem. They know that they're very aware of the air quality there is poor, but also the water quality. So you have competing factors that you're going to have to mitigate somehow, I'm not sure how, and I'm not an engineer to figure that out. But it's a fact that they're going to have to figure out water, not only quality, but where it's going to go. They do have a monsoon season, and then it kind of dries up. So they will be able to grow maybe right after that. But again, right now, very rural, very rudimentary. I don't think it's going to catch up within the next decade, but maybe in the next 2030 years. Sure.

[Yeager] As an American, what are my headlines or things and stories I'm supposed to follow out of India to just moving forward?

[Fife] Where they're getting their energy from who they're signing their treaties with. Our ability to again to to offer them something that makes sense and what are our efforts are, the longer we don't the more somebody else will

[Yeager] Do you anticipate that we are going to see India emerge from emerging nation status in the next 20 years?

[Fife] I believe so. Yes. You know, they had the G 20. summit there. They had the world games there. They've had Indian, the IPL the Indian cricket League. Now they've expanded into having the World Cup of cricket there. I think they'll get there. It's going to be difficult. because, again, you know, 33 million people in a city and a fair amount of those and lower quality of life conditions right now. But I think they can do it, you know, just just from the infrastructure that they've shown on the road side, on logistics, it's improved so much in a decade, that I think if you fast forward and getting that base foundation, now you can build up quickly, right, relatively speaking. And I think they've almost gotten that base completed. So now the next pieces need to come into place. A big thing that's happening there is they're not tearing down homes and kicking people out what they do is, as they say, Okay, you're in a, you're in a apartment complex, that's that needs to be redone, refurbished, they pay for you to move, they refurbish it, but then they're able to add like 15 Extra stories on top of the existing building. And those extra 15, they're then allowed to sell the Indian government allows them to do that they have to move everybody back in or they have to at the same rate as they did before. And that's happened in New Delhi and Mumbai. So you're seeing this giant boom. And in building the ability, there's crazy by the way, there's like bamboo scaffolding people are welding and flip flops, no OSHA, just be gone. But they're getting it done quickly. And you're seeing it just everywhere. Real estate and somewhere like Mumbai, which used to be Bombay, is more expensive than New York, because there's just no more of it there in the cities. It's so crammed in. But once you get outside, so rural, and still very village oriented.

[Yeager] I guess I always look at a little comparison for China. Let's first ask about intellectual property, thoughts. We know the Chinese have a history of reverse engineering, something they may have picked up in the United States and built it for their own? Is that type of mentality? They're in India?

[Fife] I don't believe so. No, I really don't. It doesn't seem like they are you know, there's still like a big push for a lot of people in India to get to the United States to study here. That seems to be a little bit waning in China. And again, I think they're more democratic. They're more like they want to be a partner. They're very open to some of the nicest people you'll ever meet in your life. Whatever they have, they're willing to share. I went to a festival. It was fantastic. actually made a favor. But I just don't see the same. I don't. I don't even know what to call that from China. But it seems different from India. Yeah. And more accepting of Western culture and more wanting to assimilate, more wanting to partner and that seems to be more their speed.

[Yeager] So then I'll guess I'll ask on the China we hear about the younger folks are not wanting to live in the country, and they want to live in the cities. Do you have either the same thing happening or the opposite of people getting out of the cities because it's so crowded? In India?

[Fife] No, it's the young people who are moving to the cities, it feels like there's some split, when I say smaller, I visited a city in Indore, and that's actually where our back office in our accounting is, is. That's the reason for my trip. But it was like a city like two 3 million people, which is still pretty good size. But it was a very young city. And it was very tech related. It was very, it boasts itself as the cleanest city in India. And that city was very young. And I think it's like a more of a mid-sized city kind of like an Austin or Nashville, which seems to be barbarian, United States, a lot of young people moving there. And maybe it's a little more affordable than Mumbai or New Delhi. Much like the United States, it's very hard to move and pick up and go to LA or New York nowadays. It's too expensive. Although Austin and Nashville are rapidly approaching. 

[Yeager] They're doing their part to contribute to the economy. They sure are. 

[Fife] But you're getting like that those smaller mid-sized cities that are attracting but no people definitely are leaving the countryside in droves to go to university, in a place like Indore, or Mumbai and Delhi are still very popular, obviously.

[Yeager] I guess let's close it up like this. Jordan, as we look at is there any comparison India is to another country? Has there been somebody else that's followed? This template or somebody 50 years ago that Yep, here comes India. This is what happened in that country.

I will put as the one that I would put it with maybe I completely wrong, but it feels like it is our neighbor in South Mexico. You know, they've really come along. Obviously, you know, if you look at Mexico's refining, you look at their agricultural, you look at their infrastructure, you look at telecommunications, you look at the internet, everything is you know, I don't know the last time you're in Mexico, but if you go to a developed area of Mexico, it very much feels like you're in the United States. If you're in Cabo or Cancun or any of those, you're in the United States with a nice beach, right? Safe of everything like that. It's got its problems, but what country doesn't, but I would say it's like that probably like a 50 year ago, Mexico, where it used to be much more rural and now we're seeing a lot of things validation in Mexico City and all these other cities, Monterey, you're seeing this consolidation and a willingness to work with with with us with the United States. They're obviously one of our largest trade partners. So yeah, I would, I would hope that it goes that route.

[Yeager] Back to your day job, let's deal with oil and energy. As we look in the new year of 2024, are we going to look at $5 a gallon gas? Are we going to see oil over WTI? Over 100? What's it going to take to get to that point? Or if we kind of stabilized where we're at?

[Fife] I think it is completely dependent upon what happens in Israel and Gaza. And if it stays within Israel and Gaza, not we've seen what's going to happen, we had a $9 jump, like I said, on the day of the arm, the day of the attack from Hamas to to Israel $9 in one day, and now it's bled over time, it's gone back down. We're basically at the starting point of what we were on that day, which was October 6, back to the start, the World Bank says if there's a medium size, conflict in the Middle East, there'll be about a 35% increase in crude oil. So that means if we get some smaller nations, maybe it's I'm just gonna throw it out there Qatar or something like it probably was that Qatar, but it's more like a Kuwait. If something gets involved there, or Lebanon or something like that, there's a better example, we're going to see a 35% increase, if for any reason, Saudi Arabia, or Iran gets anyway involved in this, you will see $130 crude or something, something to that effect, how long it lasts, I don't know these things usually come off pretty quickly after they, you know, the dust settles. But that's the only way in the new year. Paul, I think you're gonna see anything with the $100 crude on it is if you either get either a smaller country or a larger country back involved, it stays within those borders or trickles out a little bit. You're probably seeing $90.95 tops.

[Yeager] Jordan Fife, good to see again, thank you for the time.

[Fife] Oh, anytime. Thanks for having me.

[Yeager] My thanks to Jordan Fife. And thank you for watching. If you have any feedback for the podcast, send it my way. And MarkettoMarket@IowaPBS.org. New episodes each and every Tuesday. We'll see you next time. Bye bye