Working on farming, writing and being a good neighbor - Beth Hoffman

[Colleen Krantz] Take a walk with us down memory lane. Or maybe help spark a conversation with a loved one about the way farmers used to sound. With your Amazon device or Alexa app, say Alexa, play country farm sounds and escaped to a mid 1900s farm where they will take a walk during morning chores.

 

Hello and welcome inside the M to M Show studios at Iowa PBS, Hi, I'm Paul Yeager. Glad to have you. Here we are having a repeat visitor and author and farmer former reporter can't shake the reporter bug. Beth Hoffman is back with us. Last year we talked to her about her book bet the farm she moved from the coast where she lived all over this country moved to her husband's farm in southern Iowa, Monroe County, Iowa. We're going to talk a lot about that area and farming and being a good neighbor. That some ideas gonna kind of discuss some things but she's been talking to a lot of classes, we're gonna find out. What's the biggest subject she's asked about. When she speaks about what type of classes, what are they asking her? What's the mind of the young farmer, the young writer, the young journalist, what's happening. So that's what Beth Hoffman and I are going to do, as we discuss, also a pretty exciting thing that's happened to her farm and we'll also answer the question our farmers entrepreneurs. If you have feedback for me or any topic you want me to look at, hit me up with an email it's Paul.Yeager@IowaPBS.ORG. Now let's get to Beth. Do people stop you and ask you to sign their book?

[Hoffman] At book events and book events? Yeah.

[Yeager] How has the reception been since we last talked about the book?

[Hoffman] It's been really good. Yeah, it's been solid. I've gone to a lot of libraries throughout the state. That's really fun. college classes. Even across the country, some and yeah, people are interested and feel like I did. I did it justice, which is really the most important part to me.

[Yeager] And that would probably be the biggest compliment. Yes. When you say college classes, what type of classes? Are you going to?

[Hoffman] I've talked at Iowa State classes.

[Yeager] Like I mean, are these economics classes? Are these writing classes? 

[Hoffman] No, like, nutrition and egg kind of classes. I've talked in a few political science classes. I'm trying to remember what those classes were? Yes, political science seems to be one that's interested in it. 

[Yeager] Are you surprised by those choices of classes? 

[Hoffman] Well, I would love to speak at more ad classes. You would Yeah, I would love to which type of class anybody. You know, I tend to talk obviously, the more I like sustainable classes. But I would I've had a few like at Iowa State. Like kids who are from families that grow commodities, they're interested in doing the same, but also are very interested in thinking about this in a broader sense. And, you know, I think the next generation is always looking for like, what are the changes coming? What are other things to be thinking about? How can I do it different?

[Yeager] Because I took away from your book that you are not necessarily wanting to up-end agriculture, you want to end our thinking that it is this bucolic idealistic, it's perfect. Everything works. It's hard work. It's a lot of paperwork. It's a lot of hours, it's a lot of stress.

[Hoffman] Yeah. I think also though, it's one way like it can only be done this one way, which is corn and beans, bigger, bigger, bigger. That's it. And we'll add hogs into that mix, I guess too, but I think there's a lot of opportunity in the state for other types of Ag and there's more and more people who want fresh local food. And I think it's just an economic opportunity lost if we don't take advantage of that.

[Yeager] You started working on all of this background and things for the book prior to COVID, Correct?

[Hoffman] Well, I had been reporting on agriculture.

[Yeager] But when did you actually move to southern Iowa? 2019? Okay, so you move to pre pandemic and then the seeds, like a good reporter. You're always thinking of well, that'd be an interesting story or that would be a take. But what did now that we have another year removed from At the heart of COVID, what did that do to end our system? Maybe short term that is still alive here and the longer term removal from it?

[Hoffman] It's a very good question. I wish I could say it's ended, but it certainly has not. I think that people got much more accustomed to ordering things online. To try and to shop at farms that are more local, there was more of a key to thinking about nutrition and health, maybe we all kind of, you know, got inspired by it. Like I could, I could make my own bread and I could eat more healthy or something at home. Oh, my own vegetables. Vegetables. Yeah. And so now if I'm not gonna grow them at my own house, but maybe I can get them somewhere nearby? I think people are, I think online shopping is really the big change is that people are much more accustomed to dealing with those logistics where before, it seemed like a major hassle. You know, now even if you go to Hy-Vee or something, there's all these people walking around doing the shopping for somebody else, which I don't want that personally, I don't want them to pick my tomatoes for me, but. But we're much like generals in society. We're much more comfortable with that.

[Yeager] Right? Plenty of people are though. Yeah. Otherwise, these companies, these food companies wouldn't have that option, when you go into the grocery store. And I guess the reason I asked that question is, do you think that there was then an opportunity for us to think long term? Because I mean, it's obvious when you're in the heart of something to say, Yes, I'll bake bread. I'll grow vegetables. But two years out, you're like, you know what? Tomatoes are hard. Yeah, there's rot. There's mold. Here's what I do. What do I do with them all? I can't make that much salsa. I mean, we've quickly went away from, we really want to do our own food. Did you find that to be true?

[Hoffman] I don't think it's... No, because I think there's also a movement where people are thinking a lot more as this concept of food is medicine and nutritional. What did they call that? Like prescriptions, right? Where you could get a food box instead of going to get medicine at your pharmacy, right? That's like, those are things that are gaining momentum still, I think, where people are putting together, nutrition, what I eat, impacts my body. 

[Yeager] You think we're thinking more about that today? You do? What is given you in your personal experiences, then on your farm? That is solidifying that viewpoint. 

[Hoffman] People find like, I'm amazed at how much energy I put into marketing. And yet all the people who call us just googled, looking for fresh food looking for grass-finished beef, particularly, because there's a lot of evidence about the nutritional differences. And, and people just googling. And so to me, that's like, and then telling us Oh, it's so hard to find somebody like you where that's arguable, because there are a lot of people doing what we do in the state. You know, maybe our SEO is set up better so that they could find us. But I think that's the evidence that people are just sitting down to Google, how do I eat better? What do I eat? Where do I find that?

[Yeager] So it's on their mind? And they're going out to find certain things? And they might say, I mean, what's your customer base from? Is it Do you have a mile from your location where they're where they're at? 

[Hoffman] People are driving? Like we had somebody drive from like way west, Iowa to go pick up the meat at the locker? You know, yeah, people are calling from all over and what we'll organize to meet people somewhere, you know, that kind of thing to deliver. But it's mostly around Des Moines.

[Yeager] Are you shipping anything? Not yet? Do you want to?

[Hoffman] I don't know. It's a good question. 

[Yeager] Because that kind of takes away the whole freshness, even if you're shipping it from say, your location to Sioux Falls.

[Hoffman] But it's meat, it's all frozen, deep, deep. Freeze frozen. So even at the locker, you know, you go pick it up, it's not like it's fresh. But I'm also terrible at mailing things so the idea that I'd have to go to get things in the mail more often is scary.

[Yeager] How are things on the farm this year?

[Hoffman] Things have been really good. You know, it's always interesting because I I write things about oh, things are so hectic and stuff and then people have been following us the whole time. We'll say look at how much just accomplished in five years, which is true. It's an amazing amount of stuff. So this year, I guess the noteworthy some of the noteworthy things are we built, we had a barn, we can talk more about this, but we had a barn, from the 1880s, that was in Northern Iowa, taken down move to us put back up insulated is a two bedroom, barn house with a demonstration kitchen and an area for classes. So we're doing classes now, overnight stays. We also very notably found someone to work with us who moved here from Colorado. So that was a big part of the book. We have another young man also who's been working with us pretty steadily. So that's been incredibly exciting to have some ideas about a next generation and people who want to do their thing on our farm. 

[Yeager] Because that was part of the bet the farm book initially was that transition, you wrote a lot of chapters about that farm transition. So do you feel that the transition going?

{Hoffman]  So this is, I don't know if I gave you this phrase when I was here, maybe developed after but, you know, we do what we call regenerative agriculture, lots of people using that term, but that's arguable what other people are doing in terms of it. But for us, the regeneration of the land of the natural systems, it's also really interesting to think about that word in the middle. Those generations are there, right? You've got to have this generationally set up. It doesn't matter if John and I plan 1000 Trees walk away, you know, die, and then someone plows them over. So excuse me. So, yes, the next generation is something I'm completely obsessed about. Still, it's like it hasn't waned, it hasn't waned, because to me, just, you know, one of the popular ways of approaching that is to put it an easement onto the land and say, this can only be food crops, this can only have this kind of agriculture on it, or these kinds of development. To me, that is still kicking the can down the road, and just handing it off to our kids and grandkids and saying, you know, good luck finding someone to do this farming. So I think it has to come. Ideally, I still would love it to be that the farm is an entity that is running itself and has lots of people involved. And it's not just us making decisions. 

[Yeager] Frankly, a farm is no different than a business that goes through, that's a family business family started business from one generation to the next time we get to that second one might still be able to embody because they can remember when I was told by mom and dad, it's that third generation is where some wheels come off on a business. And the farm, I'm assuming is in your experience, you sound like you're afraid that could happen. 

[Hoffman] Well, John's a fifth generation. So the wheels have arguably come off and been put up back on and are still rolling down the road. You know, we got through the 80s. That is a very notable thing that actually happened when Leroy passed away last January almost a year ago. So that has added a lot of complexity actually, to the situation things were not as we had thought. Exactly. So there's family things to deal with there. I'm tiptoeing around this discussion, obviously, but so that is a very notable part of it. And it just makes us think all the more about what exactly we are doing? How much land exactly do we need? What wet, which enterprises are making us money? What is not making us? You know, so hopefully, you know, these things will make it as a business tighter. And I would say particularly over the last year, like the entrepreneurial skills like yes, it's a business. It's a family business. But neither of us had been entrepreneurs before. And we're arguably now full scale entrepreneurs in deep you know, having to learn how to do QuickBooks and payroll and marketing and yeah, e-commerce. 

[Yeager] I'm gonna go back to the family thing just for a moment. I know it's sensitive because it says sort of in everybody's family, which was I think the original reason that I wanted to talk to you was because I was intrigued by how you were trying to do this. So if you could offer advice to any family, or every family, that may think that everything is sealed up, or it is nowhere close, what would be your advice? Yeah, we can go for an hour if you want.

[Hoffman] Well, okay. So first off, I mean, I think it's important to note that this existing Farm Bill has money in it for family mediation, for farm land transfer. So there's actually help that you can get professional help outside of my advice.

[Yeager] And you're talking about the bill that they're arguing about now, or the ones in place? 

[Hoffman] That's been extended for, I'm not sure you know, how that works about if the money is used, or if there's money there, whatever. But for us, it was the beginning farmer center that helped us, Dave Baker, you know, so I would say outside mediation is a really helpful part because they're bringing up the topics nobody wants to talk about. And, you know, culturally, that was a very different thing for me here, right. I'm, I'm, I'm from the New York area, we talk about things. We talk too much about things. So, you know, John was out. They just don't talk about things as much. And even as we were getting deeper and deeper and putting more and more capital in. I was saying, you know, could you check with your dad, like, is the will going to be the same? Are we making improvements to land that we're not going to own? And they were conversations that never really fully happened? You know, and there was a lot of elements to it, that just kind of changed in the last year, the last year of his life got changed. That nobody really knew. So I guess my advice would be to have those conversations, even if they're hard. You kind of have to, but it's hard if you have many siblings, if you live in different places, right? You're getting together once a year for Christmas or something, right? Are you going to have that conversation then?

[Yeager] Probably not.  And in different places of their lives to not just physically but emotionally of oh, I'm still going through graduate school, I'm going through a divorce, I'm going through? Well, I'm with somebody that I don't want to be included in our family. Oh, good, because I don't want them in there. And you and you're having to deal with those things. So when you're ever asked to talk about it in classes, do people want to talk to you about that side of things? 

[Hoffman] Yeah, I think they're probably a little too young and classes to be super keyed in to like how messy this really gets, you know, in your 20s, maybe you're a little starry eyed about how it's all gonna go. But I think that they've also seen it, you know, maybe their parents saw it happen and with their grandparents or something like that. So I don't, I think it's something that I mean, the other element that I'll add to this is just that. You know, we get these kind of nostalgic connections to the land as if the land is the thing, right? And I think that, especially like Neil Hamilton has talked about this a lot, right? Like, hey, get your little, get you a little five acre piece, put up your cabin, have those nostalgic feelings about it, go visit and maybe free up the land for new land owners. And hopefully, people that are going to be on the land, I mean, that one of the questions that I get asked all the time is what did the neighbors think? Right? What are the neighbors think about your farming practices, they think you're crazy. So I started asking them, and really what my neighbors have to say is that they're all commodity farmers. They say, you know, you're here, you're good neighbors. That's what we care about. We could care less about how you farm. And if you do things differently, good for you. What we care about is having good neighbors that are human beings that are living here and caring about this place. And it's so important that this whole idea of holding onto the land and living in Chicago and renting it out and you don't you know, just let it go. Let somebody who wants to be here, be here.

[Yeager] That's part of my advice. And that's why there are good neighbor awards because you have to have good neighbors And the ones that are around the neighborhood. And it gets back to a discussion that often is had about rural America of who is living there. Because you, and especially if the money is leaving and going to Chicago, it's not staying around. You're living there. And you are seeing and caring what goes on in the school board and the county supervisors and you know, what happens on your gravel road? And the paved road? And this, you know, all those things and therefore invested in him. Yes. And that's why it's important. So yes, Neil Hamilton has sat in that chair and said, Why are you holding that land? And that's hard for some people, but they do look at it. As an investment I just saw this morning before we rolled another piece of land in a state that in an area that doesn't normally Garner this high of a price is over $18,000 an acre. It is incredibly hard financially for someone to get in to do anything, let alone traditional agriculture or non traditional agriculture at that price.

[Hoffman] Yes, there's not, I'm not telling you anything you don't know. No. And I mean, you know, wait a minute, is probably not going to last forever. Can I mean, it's just the way that life goes, it goes up because down, you know, I hope, I think you know, because other asset classes have been, you know, it's more volatile than land, people start stuffing it in land. I think there's a whole lot of misdirected anxiety about the Chinese and the Brazilian, you know, whoever's buying up the land. No, it's, it's Bill Gates, it's the Mormon church. It's that, you know, Nebraska, there was just an article about that, that the Mormon church bought up 350,000 acres or something in Nebraska, I mean, it's their stockpiling of land. So, you know, I think though, at the same time, most of the land, from what I understand is sold to your neighbor, is not necessarily sold, it hadn't been at least until the past couple years sold at auction, you know, let's maybe we go back to that system asking around what which kids in the area want to be here.

[Yeager] I've told this story before, in just a couple of past episodes of this podcast is the there was a land, there's a piece of land that goes right up next to what my mom's still loans. And she goes, Well, we knew this was coming. And I said, Well, mommy should buy it. Why? said well, you know, she's north of 80, she's not going to buy it. But she said the three I told her, because I found out who the three buyers were in the end, and they were all within five to six miles of where that land was owned. So that was considered, I think, a good thing. You know, the guy who ended up getting it is just down the road. So there you go, that would work. But I know that's not the case everywhere. In Buchanan County, again, same kind of format. They too, are one of those counties that the Mormons are buying a lot of land. And that was news to me that I didn't realize that specific group was happening. We have a lot of Amish on the north side. And she told me, and I think there's some Amish somewhat close to summer, your area, that their business is booming, their type of agriculture is booming. I will never get an Amish person in here to record with cameras and things like that. But that's all I just have to go off anecdotes. Are you finding the same thing in your area?

[Hoffman] I don't know about the booming business. I know the Kelowna super food is out? I think that's what they're Sam, I could get you his name anyway. So I think they, you know, sell, they could speak to that, I think. But I think, you know, they have a type of agriculture, that, yes, people would look at that and say, Oh, that's so old timey. And I'm not going to plow with horses or whatever. But the point of probably why they are making so much money is the lack of inputs, right? You just don't have the kinds of cars that have huge combines and input. I mean, really period, the end. That's why you end up with more cash in your pocket, even if your yields are lower.

[Yeager] You didn't spend as much money on the front end, correct? Yeah. Yeah, no, that's an excellent point. The horse is cheaper than the ridiculous size piece of, you know, iron that goes in there. Okay, so the biggest question. You said, you had one big question. What's another question you get asked when you're speaking? There one, is there a question you like or you want students to ask you more? No, you're good. You've been writing still? Yeah. I call it a sub stack. Is that one of the outlets you're using right now? 

[Hoffman] So Substack is sort of the brand name of the blog. Owner. format. Yeah. So I write with the Iowa writers collaborative. And what One of the writers on that. So I write, I write a variety of things. I mean, I just wrote an article about, well, this is an interesting topic we could talk about if you want. But you know, there was a new company that was happening, still is kind of there, but not having a hard time that was focused on Iowa, grass, finished pasture raised animals, no chemicals. And so that was a great wholesale option for us, because we're taking all the time and energy to raise them in this specific way. And people want that specific product. And so it was a great outlet. So they're having the kind of problem that most of these companies have big funders, Silicon Valley type came in all excited and then up, there is not return on investment in a year, I'm out. And then we're all kind of left like we actually need investment, that is long term. If you're going to change a system, or change part of a system, right, you need it to be probably longer than a year. So that's been very difficult to deal with. And we ended up finding a different wholesale option, meaning many cattlemen at once to someone who runs a company in Utah and has specific, you know, grass finished, kind of thing. But the animals had to travel and then you get into all of these issues that lots of cattle people deal with, like, when do you get paid for them? Who's got ownership of these animals in this interim between them leaving my farm and, and slaughter? And it turns out, oh, that's on the farmer to write. Surprise, we get to shoulder that in case something goes wrong, right. So. So I've been writing about things like that. I've also been doing a series that, as I've been calling farm meditations, is just kind of using experiences on the farm to think about life in different ways. So not really for farmers, where people on farm but just reflecting,

[Yeager] There's plenty of people who like to reflect around the farm. It's just not the traditional way we think of the farmer. Do you think your view of who a typical farmer is has changed? In the last year?

[Hoffman] Yeah, I mean, there's certainly a lot more women out there than get credit for it. I was just having lunch with someone who was talking about how, you know, the farm had been handed down, the milkman demand man, and then, you know, his parents got divorced, and his mom got half of the farm. And he said, but she worked her tail off, you know, she was the one who was arguably doing more on the farm than the man. But as she considered a farmer, no, she's considered a farmer's wife. Right? And so the farmer is the one who I don't know drives the biggest machinery. That's the person who's you know, so I and I, it also brings up this really fascinating discussion about who is a farmer? Where I see so many farmers kind of pitted at each other about are you a real farmer? No, no. And then people are like, Oh, I'm just a hobby farmer and well, what does that mean? And you know, is it the person with their hands in the dirt? The farmer is the person driving the machinery a farmer, what you know, do you have to have a certain amount of acreage,

[Yeager] So is a person who does crops, a person doing all of the book work? Selling the grain, buying the inputs and all of that stuff? Are they the ones right? Is the other person a laborer, right? A manager? So I guess in your time of covering agriculture, and then in your farmer, right, you have to consider yourself a farmer. I consider you a farmer. Totally. Yeah.

[Hoffman] I considered myself a farmer. I wrote a piece of this when, when I was left on the farm, and I was there just moving cattle from one paddock to the next and they got out. That was the day I became a farmer.

[Yeager] That's true. And it never happens at an ideal time.

[Hoffman] No, it's never the ideal time. 

[Yeager] Three in the afternoon. No, I have to go to my second job at three in the afternoon. No, that doesn't work. We're gone. We actually went somewhere. We're delivering meat to somebody in Council Bluffs.

[Hoffman] We had this beautiful time last summer. It was maybe like maybe six, seven at night and a neighbor kid drove up and you said, somebody called there's some bulls out and I was like, bulls, the bulls. You said yeah, one of them's white. And I was like, Oh, no. And they were out Oh, like a mile from the house? In a creek bed surrounded by poison ivy, you know? Yeah, it was just, it was talking about not opportune, you know?

[Yeager] Were you able? I guess I've never even known what happens, but I mean, is there any long term application to an animal that ends up with poison ivy?

[Hoffman] No but my husband, you know, we're all like in the poison ivy and he is John is crazy allergic to it and running through and you could just hear swears. And you know,

[Yeager] That makes you a farmer, too.

[Hoffman]  He's a farmer. Because he had to like go down the road and block off all the places they could get off the road that are fenced. It was a bit of a you know, and it was dark by the time we got back. 

[Yeager] You also said earlier that you don't you didn't at one point, consider yourself an entrepreneur, do you think that all farmers are entrepreneurs?

[Hoffman] That's a good question. I mean, I guess if you I guess probably all people are, I couldn't really speak to the experience of row cropping and commodity sales, because you're kind of a kind of small business to where you're putting, you know, getting your seeds and setting things up and then having to get it to market. But it's just the amount of that sort of work for anyone doing anything outside of that norm in Iowa. You know, there's just an excessive amount of details to deal with.

[Yeager] But I think anybody who's trying to find nooks and crannies to make nickels and dimes, yes, that to me as an entrepreneurial spirit, because you're the traditional way isn't working. Yes. So to me, I think of it that way. So I think you can add that to the resume, too. 

[Hoffman] Yeah, well, and I think everybody's doing that. I mean, I think that's part of that kind of question of what do your neighbors think? I mean, I think at this point, nobody thinks that, you know, just a commodity like, you've just got to do it in this way. And you're going to or otherwise, you're crazy. No, I think everybody's always trying something different and seeing what you can do to make a nickel and dime.

[Yeager] But I think that goes back to the neighbors. There are neighbors who will look at not necessarily YOU, but the you in general of what they are doing over there? Why aren't they able to just hand now because we figured out that this pencils out for us? Or we think it might and we're going to try it? Yeah. And we have a little more passion for this. To do it. Because do you think that all farmers have passion? about their job?

[Hoffman] No, I mean, no job. Everybody has passion, right? They're supposed to write Wouldn't they? Even at Iowa? Public Radio, Television, right? There's probably people who are just doing their job. So there's always that Yeah.

[Yeager] I suppose. But I think I always think of the farmer love what they do. They love the yes, there are some downsides of it. Because yes, the cattle come out at two in the morning, the the rain never falls, the rain never stops whatever it is. You have to have some type of wherewithal to get through it. Otherwise, you're not going to last mentally. There's never anything, let alone financially.

[Hoffman] There's no doubt about that. 

[Yeager] Yeah, the barn and the residents that the moving this thing, so where in Northern Iowa because to me, that's an entrepreneurial thing that you're doing. Also a little educational.

[Hoffman] It's called it was on Zillow. Which I don't know where that is. It was gotten through a company called barn savers so they take down barns, and then you kind of have to have somebody who knows how to put it back up because it comes like Lincoln Logs and, uh, you know, on a semi with tags, b two, and you gotta know what b two goes to. So then the guy who put the timber frames together, they came and then you have to stand them up with the crane and then you know, attach the whole thing, which was a bit harrowing. What are those? It doesn't look harrowing on the video, but there's a video online I can send you. And then basically, if you want to have that barn on the interior, you have to build a barn around your barn to have insulation in between the tear. So where we went from like, Oh, this might be cost effective to buy this old barn then. Yeah, it wasn't very costly. It was an enormous kind of money pit, but it's beautiful. It's a really beautiful bill. thing, and I can stay there. Yes, we can stay there. You know, our website is just Iowa dash farm.com. And so we're getting the E commerce as we speak is being kind of figured out. So we have to get that all set up. It'll be on Airbnb at some point. And then we are running classes. So I'm running, writing classes. One of them being kind of writing and meditation does having a quiet space for writing. Going out on the farm, and then another one is, oh, when we're gonna have baby goats in the spring, and you've not had baby goats before we have, yeah, yes. So we kid in the spring. Okay, so there'll be writing experience around that. And then John is teaching cooking classes, and we're having a Rabbie burns cooking event with a small party and also St. Patrick's Day, and he also teaches sausage making

[Yeager] is he doing all of these in like, in the house, backyard or some of these online too?

[Hoffman] These will all be in that barn? Okay, so it has kind of a teaching kitchen in it. 

[Yeager] So in the sense of you are bettering your community Yes, it because it could be easily just to treat this as a studio. And you record it, ship it somewhere or stream it somewhere. But you are absolutely being good neighbors about trying to better your community. Do you feel that way?

[Hoffman] I feel very much that way especially because if you think about you know where people are, if you know, in Des Moines you think about okay, I want to have a nice experience in Iowa. Where am I gonna go? You don't think of Monroe County right now? And I, I don't know why. Because where we live is an extraordinarily beautiful place. And in this state, you know, people come all the time, and they're like, this is Iowa. I mean, it's full of trees. It's rolling hills. You know, of course cattle and pasture land and goats and ain't no, it's just it's a very idyllic, beautiful area. So I would love to see a lot more tourism to the whole area, not just us. I think it could be that the whole county should have more people coming.

[Yeager] I guess Make Your Pitch then why or how that happens. Because that's not the typical i That's not the area with the person with the animal, the animal with two ears, or there's no roller coaster there. I mean, that's a tourism spot. Not a farm in Monroe County, Iowa.

[Hoffman] City, people love coming out to the five. I mean, what do you want to go to a farm? Hang out? 

[Yeager] I do. But I can't always convince everybody else to come with me.

[Hoffman] Oh, well, look should come to our place then.

[Yeager] And what's a good experience? I mean, what do you hope? What is the target then? If city people are reluctant?

[Hoffman] Um, I think well, I don't think city people are reluctant. I don't. I've lived in a lot of cities and cities that are considered to have the best quality of life or places that have outdoor experiences nearby. Or are you right, you know, right nearby, we're an hour from the city. It's a great day out, come out, do a hike, maybe cross country ski if we ever have snow again. And then come in here, make sausage in a class, have dinner with a bunch of really interesting people you've never met before and go back to the city.

[Yeager] What if this farm was an hour outside of San Francisco? Who would be your target then?

[Hoffman] Well, same all that we just have a lot more competition of cool farms to go because

[Yeager] there are cool farms there like that. Yeah, same thing. Put it in New York. I mean, upstate, that's what you think that's how upstate? Yes. New York.

[Hoffman] In the whole Hudson Valley? Where do people want to farm? They want to farm in the Hudson Valley. They want to farm in Sonoma County. Right? Because people have done this work to set up farms to set up tourism where it's a very active, vibrant place to be. And that's I think how you get next generations wanting to live there and do it because you already have something happening. You know, nobody wants to go farm kind of nowhere and just be alone and struggling. I don't think that there's a lot of young people who want to do that.

[Yeager] We're coming into the political season of sorts, and there's always this discussion about well, how are we going to repopulate or put people back in on farms or in rural areas and maybe spread out some of this larger city concentration of people? How does Monroe County expand its population?

[Hoffman] Well, if I had all the answers, maybe I'd be reading. But I mean, I, again, I think there's push factors where people are being pushed out of cities, right? I witnessed that myself where it's just too expensive to live, not enough housing, so on and so forth. But you've got to have pull factors into other places. So the places that people are leaving cities and going to have some kind of not only economy and jobs, I think that's the wrong thinking is like oh manufacturing, or something is going to pull people in by just just jobs, I think. Because this state compared to other places I've lived in, I've lived in a lot of other places in this country, it has such a lack of outdoor recreational places that that is what Monroe County could provide. It could provide a nearby place where you can get to, you know, you can go there pretty quickly. And Marion County is, you know, even closer, but a nearby place to the city that has open space that has recreational space, we, I would love to see kind of bike routes on gravel roads developed and that kind of stuff, it's all very possible in my mind is not like a lot of infrastructure has to be put in.

[Yeager] In manufacturing to get a plant to come to some town covers. We need water, we need electricity, we need a workforce, we need infrastructure. Yeah, we need some of those things with turn it to what you're pitching, but not all the same things. Yeah, and might get a better investment, not as high input, if we want to tie it back to what we were talking about. 

[Hoffman] And a lot of those places are sold as like, oh, the tax, you know, revenue, and then we give them a giant tax break. It turns out, they're not bringing any taxes in with this new plant, you know. So, you know, I think that it's a long, you gotta go for the long game, it's not going to be an immediate thing. It's like, the more you can have another little shop, I know where we have a main street team Chamber of Commerce designation, I think there's some funding that comes for the main street. I don't know what that's what that entails. But you know, so there's, there's money coming in to help those businesses on the squares be setting up and inactive Chamber of Commerce. And so, you know, hopefully more restaurants and things to do. And I, you know, again, I think it's not, you can't, you can't look at it, like you're gonna suddenly like tomorrow or next week, or even next year gonna pull in masses of people. But planting the seeds literally all over the county, could end up creating something like that.

[Yeager] It's just like you were talking about with the companies need to be in for more than a year. And the investment needs to happen. And maybe it will take the second, third or fourth, or in John's case, fifth generation before. That's just the evolution of the way that farm has gone. Yes. Yeah. Lastly, is there a sequel coming to the book?

[Hoffman] I'm not sure. I'm not sure what's going to happen. I become very interested in the concept of how I don't even know how to actually talk about this fully, but the industry around feeding the hungry, quote, unquote, and our lack of raising the minimum wage or things like that the lack of investment in that side, and the focus of the money going in places that I don't fully understand. So it feels like a very good investigative piece to me,

[Yeager] you just can't shake it. No matter how much farm we've put you as surrounded you can't shake that reporter brainstem, and all of the economic dive ins that you might do.

[Hoffman] You look everywhere and think, where's How is that funded?

[Yeager] Right? I have, I have no cards. I have them there on my nightstand. In fact, they get stacked up. I just think of something and write it down all the time or the Notes app. i Yes, it is hard, you look at something and go, Oh, that'd be a good conversation. Or you know, I was looking at your book the other day on my shelf here at work. And as like, I need to talk to Beth and I'm so glad you made time to come up so we could revisit again. And I wanted to follow up on my promise of having you back so we could continue the discussion. And we'll do this again. As we continue to solve the world's problems.

[Hoffman] I appreciate it. It's really great. Thank you. All right, 

[Yeager] Beth, thank you so much. Thank you. My thanks to Beth and again, you can find her website Iowa-farm.com Find out what they're up to read some of her writings. And maybe book a stay In the barn on the farm, sound fun. We hope you come back next Tuesday with another new episode. Or if you want to binge tell a friend that you've watched or listened. We always appreciate those recommendations. Thank you. And we'll talk to you next time. Bye bye.