Frontline update on HPAI in Iowa - Mike Naig

Hi, I'm Paul Yeager. This is the MtoM Show podcast production of Iowa PBS and the Market to Market TV show. We are going to dive into a topic that is back again in the Upper Midwest, and that is HPAI. We're going to be talking about diseases in animals. We'll talk a lot about that today, our guest is the Secretary of Agriculture in the state of Iowa, Mike Naig, where he kind of gives us not necessarily numbers, but what's happened, what's different between the outbreaks of '22 and '23 and 2015, we will focus heavily on poultry. We'll also talk about African Swine Fever just a little bit and just the general sense of how fighting diseases has changed what has been learned, as each one of these outbreaks happens. We'll also talk about those backyard flocks and larger confined operations and what they mean in this story. That is today's MToM Show podcast. Your years of being Ag Secretary have been filled with a number of things, but it seems to be you're always out front talking about Hi, Path, I mean, HPAI. Why is that? How did it fall to you? Yeah, as to be the person that we go to for information and kind of speaking for the state?

[Mike Naig] Well, you know, when you look at the response to a foreign animal disease, and so it's important to start at the beginning, what is a foreign animal disease, because in livestock production, we're dealing with disease management, herd health all the time. What's different about an FAD? Well, that's a list of diseases that, you know, there's global treaties around that countries agree that if they have, and those those will be a high path, avian influenza, African swine fever, foot and mouth disease are the three that we really think about. But if you have that in your country, then you report to this global, you know, Consortium, and you say, and the idea is that you're trying to prevent the movement of that disease from country to country. So immediately, what happens is trade shuts down. So if we had African swine fever, you know, immediately every export market for pork stops, and then you have to work yourself out of that. And so countries then have protocols that they put together plans, programs, regulations, laws, you know, they pay indemnity, all of that leads to you trying to say we're going to prevent a foreign animal disease. But if we get one that we can then manage it in a way that we can prove that we're free of it at some point, and you can start trading again. So the way that that works in the US is that a joint response between states have the primary lead response in most cases, and then they work together with the USDA. And then of course, the industry is the third leg to that stool. So in Iowa, whether it's by code in Iowa law, the Iowa Department of Ag is the lead entity on that, but also in our relationship with USDA. So, but that's pretty logical, right? I mean, the state veterinarian works for me, the state veterinarians in our office, it's logical, we've got the expertise to respond, I keep saying, this is something I really wish we weren't good at, or we didn't know anything about meaning. I really wish we didn't have to deal with it. But we do.

[Yeager] I'm not saying I get all my political pop culture references from West Wing, but there weren't political shows that used to talk about when they talk about the President or whatever, only West Wing would be the ones that we have Mad Cow somewhere, you know, so you learned, but I mean, you're filtering information through because as your boots on the ground. 

[Naig] That's right, that's right. So it's our responsibility, both to respond, but also we take very seriously the responsibility of then communicating about what's happening, you know, there's no food safety issue related to high path because, of course, the animals that are infected, don't make it into the supply chain that's important for consumers to know that. But it's also important from an economic development, economic impact standpoint, that we also try to minimize the economic fallout from a foreign animal disease. You know, I again, we're talking about a high path today, but apply that to Foot and Mouth Disease or African swine fever, if you have it, and you have it in a serious way. I mean, it can impact the price of corn, the price of soybean, everything, right. We all know that this is all connected. And so those are the reasons that we take it so seriously.

[Yeager] And you have certain, I guess, checklists, we do so and do you refine those from year to year or outbreak to outbreak you know…

[Naig] So the famous kind of outbreaks that people look at would be in the UK foot and mouth disease outbreak right early this century. And devastating impact. A lot of folks at USDA sent a lot of veterinarians over to work in that response and people brought home a lot of learnings from that 2015 had been the previous the biggest foreign animal disease outbreak and you US history was in 2015. We've now surpassed that in the last two years, unfortunately. But 2015 taught us a lot. And really, there was an effort to improve and to raise the bar and have more capacity to respond as the state of Iowa really is born out of 2015. Then Secretary Northey was Secretary of Ag at the time, I was the deputy secretary, we learned major lessons, USDA learned about how to mount a more effective response. And so, yes, we've got plans, you know, all foreign animals eat outbreaks are sort of the same in that same subject matter, you've still got 10 of the same procedures. But each disease is different. And each industry is different. And so then you have to have kind of specific plans within those. And we exercise those plans. And I like to tell our team, if we don't break our plan, we're not testing it hard enough. And so what you want to do is, put it through live multi-day, maybe multistate exercises, and you really try to break it, and then fix it and learn what were the gaps. What did we realize that we hadn't thought of? And there's always something that you go, Oh, my goodness, how did we not think of that, but that's the process that we're going through.

[Yeager] So that's the process of communicating what happened responding to what happened. But what's been happening, you say we've surpassed previous numbers, does that mean that we've not been successful in responding with preventing the deaths of animals.

[Naig] So let's get to look at this couple of ways. So 2015, the last time that we had a massive outbreak and high path in the country, really, it lasted during the spring of the year. So high path is carried by migratory birds. When they fly north, they bring it through our area, when they fly south now, and we've learned in the fall, they can also carry it. But in 15, we only had an outbreak in the spring. And by fall, the wild birds had developed immunity to it. They weren't, they weren't spreading the virus anymore. And so that was a half a year kind of experience for us. But now this last experiment, outbreak, it goes back to the spring of 22. We had an outbreak in the spring of 22, this fall of 22, the spring of 23 and the fall of 23. And so now were back two years. So yes, it surpassed the numbers in 2015. But I would argue I mean, we're on year two of this, this outbreak, as to the question of how are we doing in the response? In Iowa, the numbers are dramatically different. You know, we're talking about, you know, again, 51 sites over two years. That year, we had 77 sites in a few months. We also saw back in 2015, a lot of movement of the virus from site to site lateral movement, and that was telling us that there was biosecurity, an issue is either moving on equipment or people something was happening, it was tracking between farms, that hasn't happened this time around. And that tells me that those lessons were learned very well. We're still struggling, I think broadly with how do you prevent wild bird interactions? How do you keep birds from getting into buildings? Those are biosecurity questions that have yet to be answered. But also, I would note in this outbreak, we've had fewer large commercial sites and more backyard small flocks. And so our numbers just aren't anywhere close to being the same in terms of total population impacted.

[Yeager] I go back to 20 years ago, you still couldn't enter a hog facility without shower in and shower out. The hog industry has figured some of that, but they've had outbreaks of other things caused whatever. But did the poultry industry not have those same standards? But I always felt that they did when you're talking about that building to building is that what you mean? Are we talking about the rodents that are going from one or the other?

[Naig] It could be that too. There's all kinds of vectors for virus but in terms of the biosecurity building the building, it's very much that people movement, you've got two distinct kind of industries in the state of Iowa that are being impacted by high path. We're number one in egg production, we have very large egg producers, very well designed modern facilities that absolutely are every bit the shower in, shower out. High biosecurity focus in that egg industry. And then we have a turkey industry that is a little more like having you know finishers, hog finishers that you know, across the state and multiple sites and those are a little more exposed to the elements you're not going to see a shower in shower out facility on a finisher side. And so there are differences. We have to keep that in mind. But, you know, what I know about biosecurity is that it's challenging, because you've got to do it every single day. It's costly, you got to train for it. And you know, you got to do it right every single time and you know, there are things that can happen. So I think there's more to be learned about that. But I'm proud of the fact that the lateral movement has been cooled. And our response is better, as in, we detect it faster, we respond quicker. And those sites are a way of disposal and clean up and processing faster. And sites are getting back into business faster. And so those are things that I'm trying to measure and say, Are we being successful or not? 

[Yeager]  Do you get the sense that those people that you've been trying to help get back into business or to get their barns repopulated quicker? Are they more understanding? Because they have been through it before? Or is it they just know that's going to be the cost of doing business?

[Naig] No, I mean, every single person that goes through this, believe me is learning something, this is not something you want to experience. Also, you know, it's important that you know, you may, you may be a turkey producer that doesn't has never had an infected premise, that doesn't mean that you're not being affected by this, that doesn't mean that you're not stressed, it might be the this is your morning to go out and find that you've got a building affected. And so that industry, in particular, the poultry world in Iowa has done a good job of sharing that experience across. And of course, we've had lots of grower meetings and brought folks together to share the experience. Here's what you can expect, here's what happens, here are the challenges that you're going to have. So no, I, I think that every buddy that goes through, it learns something, and honestly, we improve our response every single time that we have to deploy. So that's just part of the process. This, the fact is this variant of high path that we're dealing with now and over the last two years, it's just something that's highly effective, and apparently effective at very small quantities. And so you can't let your mind wander. How are the various ways that this is making its way in? But, you know, when birds are migrating, when they're flooding the area with virus, you know, their ways that it finds its way in?

[Yeager] There might be somebody who's not familiar with how that happens. When you say flooding an area or the wild, those birds are flying over. They're dropping? Yeah, they're sharing water. How's that getting from? We've shored up these facilities. We have roughs. It's not like we're talking about a wide open, right facility here.

[Naig] It's there. Lots of questions about that, to be honest, it look something that I think has been instructive for people to sort of get their heads around as well. We all went through COVID The last, you know, several years, and you think well, how did that move around? Right? And it's not unlike that, right. But there, you know, it can be tracked in on boots, small birds can get into buildings, it comes in through ventilation fans, you know, there's a number of ways that it can move. And that's where we got to go to the next level here. I'm not of the mind that some people say, Well, this is just something we can't, we can never solve. I don't believe you're not in that camp. No, I don't believe I can't allow myself to be in that situation. Because I think there's always more that we can do. And really what I know, and I think what's borne out here over the last couple of years is like this has to do with trying to minimize the contact between wild birds, and anything that can track in or cause that virus to make it into a building. So more to be done. There are some interesting, I think engineering questions around Well, so are there deficiencies in a design or in a building that may need to be sure, you know, shored up and those are things that need to be researched as well?

[Yeager] Do you find the industry doesn't necessarily have to necessarily poultry? That's just the topic, but I mean, that hog industry? Have they been engaged in these discussions of how do we improve from things we can't control, I can control you and me from going into that building. I can't control the rodents, that bird, that whatever, getting in the ventilation vent and causing a problem.

[Naig] That's what we need people to be thinking about. I think it has been instructive across species, right? I mean, it, you know, maybe the most analogous would be poultry or Turkey to swine, because of just the concept of a finisher building and that sort of thing. Species are different. There's no doubt about it, but every producer needs to be thinking about. And by the way, you're not just trying to keep a foreign animal disease out of your sight, any disease, right? Typically, what you would say is the things that you do to improve your biosecurity are things that are helping your herd health and your productivity and your profitability. So in the long run, those things pay. But there are things we are so thankful that we have not had to deal with this with African swine Fever, fever, but we are watching it around the world and it is a threat and we need to be thinking that way.

[Yeager] Oh, you've been around long enough to know that the World Pork Expo canceled because we're not wanting this virus to go here even though it probably wouldn't. But it's the political term - abundance, out of abundance of caution, the COVID term that we heard so much, but I mean, that's, that's the world we live in, right?

[Naig] It's real and we live in You know this as well as anybody. Agriculture is global, right, and people move around the world, products move around the world. Here's the good news. And again, I'm not I'm not a fatalist when it comes to this either. We have kept things out of this country very successfully. I believe that we can keep, we can keep African swine fever out of this country, I don't believe that it's just a matter of when not if now, what is it, you got to make sure that you're working to ensure that you can say that it's Beagle brigades sniffing out products coming in, at airports? It's it's helping country, you know, the Dominican Republic has this now, Haiti, very difficult places to work. But you, the United States government should be doing what we can to try to help contain that virus where it is if you can not get down there, the chance of spreading is reduced. And so those are the things you got it you got to be proactive. You got to be aggressive in this.

[Yeager] Where are we at in that discussion when it comes to the large concentration of these animals? And is there ever, you know, maybe we ought to look at confinements differently?

[Naig] Well, I mean, I think that there are many positives for the way that we do what we do in terms of efficiency and cost. And consumers ultimately benefit from that. You know, those are maybe for other other folks to talk about. I tried to look at the realities of our agriculture as it exists today. I do think that people should be thinking about how you would do things that made sense decades ago, maybe don't today? And so maybe you wouldn't design a site exactly as you maybe wouldn't put the feed mill smack dab in the middle of a site? Because, you know, those are some things that you could think about. But you know, there are many positives for the way that we do animal agriculture. And so I don't know that that means that we shouldn't do it the way we do because of this. But those are things you have to take into account, how you move people around a site. I know there's a lot more to think about, do we know where if we have a vaccine vaccination crew or a crew that's coming onto our farm, do we know where they've been? Are they a contract crew? Did they just show up from somebody else? Those are the types of things I think be wise about those things. And I've seen improvements in that area.

[Yeager] The site is going to stay, but how that site operates is what's evolving and changing?

[Naig] Very much so and how the product moves on the site itself. You know, those are things that I do think that warrant investigating, because...

[Yeager] There's always going to be those that are going to probably write you letters or stop you in a parade or whatever. And just, you know, I'd like to see that confinement agriculture go away. And this might be their entry into saying this is why.

[Naig] Yeah, well, that argument has certainly been out there. Again, I would go back to the fact that we can't look at these things entirely in isolation, right? This is one component of this. I, I've got three children, we go through eggs, like you wouldn't believe at my house, we're looking for lots of protein.

[Yeager] And I've seen the size of a couple of them. Yes, I know how they know we're pro muscle development.

[Naig] Yeah, so we want high, we want protein. You know, the reality is, we consumers benefit greatly because of the efficient safe, you know, affordable food system that we have. And by the way, there's room for a lot of diversification in that too. So that's the great part of the American food system is you can get what you want.

[Yeager] Well, let's look at it this way from 2015 to 2020 to 2023, has the poultry industry changed the way they operate the barns, the sites themselves, like much like a farmer hedges and sells some grain in October, some grain in December, you know, we're gonna put some egg layers in Arkansas, we're gonna put some egg layers in Illinois, we're going to spread out our risk in other places. Have you seen that happen?

[Naig] I can only speak to what we're seeing in the state of Iowa and really we haven't seen in terms of distribution or massive changes in that right. I mean, we still have a high concentration of poultry in what we got in northwest Iowa and Southeast Iowa when it comes to turkey production. egg production is, you know, a lot in central and Northwestern Iowa. We haven't seen much of a change in the state itself.

[Yeager] So we're not seeing that's not something you're seeing now, not in Iowa. Right. But I mean, I think you wouldn't hear like a barn doesn't repopulate with what it was in before.

[Naig] We've not seen that people have brought facilities back into production. Do you see expansion of the industry happening? What I'm seeing is a I think you are seeing a change in terms of trying to supply a marketplace that's looking for cage free or different differentiators production methods. And so that's what we're seeing, maybe where a building might be replaced and with a different production style. So that's, that's more along the line

[Yeager]You're known in the circles where these barns operate and heavy concentration farms are, but the backyards the communities that have said oh, you know what we're going to allow, bring back 12 eight six birds with I think your latest outbreak as we sit here today there was a backyard outbreak. How does Mike Naig the Secretary of Agriculture have a message for those in urban communities that might be bringing back and allowing chickens or whatever in their backyard? 

[Naig] I'm, I'm for it. I'm okay with, you know, seeing, you know, I'm not saying I'm for every, you should be unlimited in terms of how many chickens in town I'm not, I'm not really beyond my paygrade. But I am very comfortable with the idea that people can have backyard chickens and small producers. And we do have some small producers who sell at farmer's markets or those types of things. There's plenty of room in this space for that, in the market for that. Here's what we do talk about, though, is you also, though, are on the front line for high path, avian influenza, just because you have 12 birds, or 20 Birds or 2000. Birds, you two need to be looking for the signs of high path, you two need to be thinking about minimizing contact. So this isn't just a big, I think that's actually something that has borne out this fall in particular, again, I said we've really had, we've had fewer in terms of large commercial operations and a lot of backyard flocks. So that's a reality. And that's okay. It's just that don't, don't assume that just because you've only got a few birds that this isn't your This isn't an issue that you have to worry about.

[Yeager] So if I grow, let's just say, well just take a dozen. So if I put 12 birds in my backyard, what am I hearing from the Secretary from the Department of Ag? In Iowa?

[Naig] I'll take care of those birds and be mindful that you, too, could be dealing with Hi Path. And if you do, we need to hear from you. 

[Yeager] Are you getting literature, phone calls? Do I have permits? I guess I don't even understand it.

[Naig]No, you're not. I mean, you've got to follow your local ordinances. But no, we don't. You know, as a rule, we're not. We're not having premise IDs for somebody that's got a small, you know, small backyard, flock, but, but that's okay. But what we do is we try to through media, through social media, you know, and even reaching out directly to folks around some of these sites that go positive, you know, we're trying to really be focused about how we get messages to them. But actually, I take it as a good sign that we do have, you know, again, folks, I only have a few chickens that are picking up the phone and calling the department and saying things don't look right today. And we'll go out and we'll take samples. It's important. So I think we're getting through but that's my message would be it's okay, you can have birds, but just know that. Don't Don't assume that this isn't a problem that can affect you.

[Yeager] We're gonna close with science and food safety. You've mentioned both the Science of Things, your understanding of how this virus transmits. But what are the scientists telling you in this discussion? Have we found something we have hope we have promise from a science standpoint in this fight?

[Naig] Well, you know, this is nature, right? Mother Nature, this is a biological thing. These are birds that migrate when they get to their destination, mix and match. So some of this is unknown. Let's be honest, I can't sit here and tell you and I don't think any scientists can with any certainty that we aren't going to be dealing with this again in the spring, or that we're done with it this fall, or this winter. Meaning that I can't predict what's going to happen there. We have to maintain a state of constant readiness when it comes to that. It's important to track that it's important to test birds in the wild populations so that we can try to determine what we try to anticipate. I think it's interesting that you know, I think we're all trying to figure out what are the positive ways that artificial intelligence could potentially be deployed, right? And will help that maybe they're not hosting the podcast here. You never know,

[Yeager] I might be real or you might not be real or not real.

[Naig] I think among the things that you do look at and say, Well, how can we deploy new, you know, new technology or its insights into trying to be more predictive of Where's where things are moving within the wild bird populations? I don't know. Those are things I'm interested in. And I know others are as well looking at. I'd say the other piece that and this is not, this is not a panacea. This is not a this is not a fix, fix for everything. And that would be a vaccine. And again, whether we're talking about FMD ASF, or high path, I think we should be very interested in understanding how vaccines could be developed, and then possibly how they can be deployed. There are trade implications to using vaccines, right? Because again, you're you're you're you've got to be able to prove that a bird or a product you know, wasn't affected by that FAD that you're that you're trying to prevent the spread of and so there's there's got to be a lot of development there, but I'm Pro development and trying to figure out if this could be used as a tool. But there's all kinds of policy implications and trade implications that have to be worked out around that. But I'd rather know that we had a tool and a potential to use it, then to say, well, we don't know. And so I think whether it's again ASF, or high path, I think we ought to be thinking about those things. So those are maybe the interesting things that you we've talked extensively about it, it would be what is the next level on biosecurity? How do you prevent what's the next thing that you can do to try to be better protective in another round?

[Yeager] Do you get the sense private industry is going to lead that vaccine work or the government is going to contract out our wares that me the meaning of the combination,

[Naig] and that's how that should be. And that's how it is in this whole space. It really is a i It's a three legged stool, if that's what you want to say states, you know, State of Iowa we've got, we've got tremendous assets, Iowa State University, College of vet med, the vet diagnostic lab, and Ames, you know, such an incredibly important asset and tool for us. That's where all of our testing is done in Ames. And thank goodness that we can get in a car and drive there. And we're not flying samples or overnighting samples, I can't tell you how many times we've got a call that comes in, we're already on the road. They can get them you know, those samples run and we'll have results that nobody can do it faster than what we can get done here. And so we've got those assets. You've got USDA that has very important assets also in Ames, but other places, equipment that we need. But the third leg is industry and whether that's the you know, pharmaceutical companies or the industries themselves or the grower groups, you know, the checkoff organizations that are investing, it's all of the above, we all need to improve our capacity, but everybody needs to be invested.

[Yeager] And everybody has been invested. I think I heard you on this program. before Thanksgiving is one of the last big outbreaks of surge of them. You were again, talking about, from the consumer standpoint, those who don't have any connection to the bird other than they go to the grocery store and, and pick it up. These animals are safe to eat, or they're not. They're not in the food supply, but the food supply is safe. 

[Naig] That's right. And we like to end every conversation or press release that we do with that point, which is like always it's always a good idea to properly prepare food, right. And you should do that to temperatures and all those things safe handling is always a good idea. But that's the point of having the robust system that we do is that we had these things off. When we have a detection, those birds are not entering the food supply chain. And there's also this idea that you don't want to see animal diseases jump into the human world. And so that's the other reason that we want to be very aggressive and successful in our efforts to manage these diseases. And why it's important that other countries are doing the same thing. I mean, we need to hold others accountable as well, for ensuring that they can also say that they have robust systems.

[Yeager] Secretary Mike Naig, thank you so much for the time, appreciate it. Absolutely. My thanks to Mike Naig, Secretary of Ag for the state of Iowa New episodes come out each and every Tuesday. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts so you can be in the know on how to watch or listen to our next episode. Bye bye.