Feral hogs run wild - growing like compound interest

[Yeager]  Hi everyone, I'm Paul Yeager. This is the MtoM Show podcast, a production of Iowa PBS and the Market to Market TV show. We are getting into a topic today that I have been very intrigued by for quite some time. I've been trying to get some interviews about this subject. It is something we know a lot about here in the Midwest, and that's hogs. But we're going to be talking about wild hogs, wild pigs that have ravaged crops, livestock and other things across several United States, and is something that's also in Canada. So if you're watching this in Iowa, Illinois and South Dakota, you have to be worried about this issue both to the south as this problem migrates north, and also to the north as it heads south. What does that mean? We're going to talk with Aaron Sumrall. He is the Director of Outreach, Education and Research with a company called Pig Brig. It is a live trap. We'll talk about that. But we're going to get into the how bad of an issue. This is where this animal survives, how it got here, where it's headed next, the type of damage that it does is in hundreds of dollars per animal. And this is something that illegal hunting has also contributed to as making this problem helping spread this issue across the United States. If you have any feedback for me and if you do on this episode, Aaron has said he will gladly talk and do a follow up interview. So if you have questions about anything on this topic, put them here in an email to me at Paul.Yeager@IowaPBS.ORG. And we'll make a whole episode just about your questions. And I know I have a whole bunch too so we'd love to hear from you. But now let's get started. As Aaron is joining us on the Texas - Louisiana border today. Aaron, we've had a ridiculously warm winter where we think 40s is great but that's like cold for you right now right?

[Aaron Sumrall]  Yeah that's pretty cold I mean we typically hear where I'm at in this the deep south anyway was kind of tongue in cheek we get our two day winter and go right back into summer so it's pretty standard for us to be where we're at right now.

[Yeager]  I don't like your summers. I look at heat and humidity and just go no, thank you. I can handle heat. Humidity just drives me crazy.

[Sumrall]  That's what we call the air you can wear. So it doesn't seem to want to leave you.

[Yeager]  Are you from the area? Texas, Louisiana Mississippi, where are you from?

[Sumrall]  I was raised in Southeast Texas about an hour outside of Beaumont.

[Yeager]  Oh, way down there,

[Sumrall]  Way down there. Yeah.

[Yeager]  What? What was your background?

[Sumrall]  Well, I was raised on the farm and in bidding been on a farm my whole life, my whole family, I guess lineages there within 10 Miles basically where my my parents still live and, and from early on, we we we had cows, we had chickens, we add horses in just like what you'd find on a farm. But we also do, we're one of the spots that were early on with the I guess the attack coming from wild pigs. And back in the day, it was largely brought in just transported in basically, like, if you were to think of the movie, The Old Yeller, whenever whenever we see that they put their mark on the pigs and they do what they do. And they work those animals in the woods and that's what they did back in the day and and just with pigs being what they are they just decided not to stay where they were intended. And then start partaking of the mineral intended for the cattle for the feed that was out there, the gardens that were around and so forth and so on. And, they quickly became a nuisance forest. So it was one of those things that as I got older it was a challenge for no matter what we saw in agriculture. And whenever I got the opportunity to go to college and work on an ag degree and then work on a wildlife degree as well. It was the opportunity then to be able to merge the two schools of thought being ag and wildlife together to where we could combat a feral pig issue without trying to pose any undue task liabilities, anything like that on the farmer that's looking for that commodity to pay their bills and feed their family.

[Yeager]  In Texas, where did  you grow up? I mean, was there? How long ago? Is this a problem? Is this something you've known about your whole life? Aaron?

[Sumrall]  It is. It's something that again, too. I think that whenever we start trying to put our thumb on really when it got bad for where I was that was probably in the early 80s. Up until that point, I mean, in a lot of the rural parts of the south, I mean all over the United States and those rural parts. There was still a lot of folks that use that livestock species even though it was an exotic wildlife species. They depended on it as a protein source and and heavily manage that population just for that and then you start To look at the mid 80s, the early 80s, things like that the economy shifted a little bit, there was more people that weren't coming back to the farm after after they graduated high school or college or whatever the case may be. And as that generation of people aged out to the point where they couldn't go out in the woods and the brambles, the briar patch is and look for these pigs, we took the foot off the the management gas pedal for a pig, and reproduction didn't stop. I mean, so they just exploded in population. And, and now we've got the, the bomb that we have, and quickly moving to wherever basically wherever they want to go.

[Yeager]  You mentioned the population explosion, the lack of population control hunting. For those things, it wasn't like a policy change that you no longer can do this, therefore this thing grows, this was just nature taking off?

[Sumrall]  Right. Because the pig, I mean, a wild pig that what we have in the States is considered a non native exotics. So with that, there's no game laws that really govern that, that animal as far as hunting seasons, anything like that. So basically, for all practical purposes, where the where the hooves of that animal stand, whatever property that that those feeder at, that's who owns that exotic animal, if they move from my property to yours, now, they're your your issue. They're your exotic animal, there's no ownership. So there's really not a lot of legislation that was in place that would hinder a lot of the management, which that's, that's something that's, I guess we could talk that a whole different direction at another time. But it's one of those that now and mentioned the south all over, especially Texas, there's been some legislative changes that's been made to make it more, give more options, I guess, to the land manager out there to be able to try to minimize those numbers. But early on, yeah, early on, we it was it was managed heavily with firearm, and there were just a lot of people on the landscape with firearms that were looking for that protein source. And in the last 30, 40, 45 years or so, there's been a substantial decrease in the number of people that are out there on that landscape. And it's gotten to the point where it's not subsistence hunting to look for that protein source. It's hobby or recreational hunting. And we know just through libraries of research, that there's no way that we're going to shoot our way out of a big problem. So it's going to have to be something of an adaptive strategy, integrated at a specific time based on based on a prescription for each individual property.

[Yeager]  I want to get into the strategy for finding it in a minute. But I want to go back to something you said at the beginning. How were these introduced, you mentioned the Old Yeller book. But what was this something willingly brought to this country?

[Sumrall]  It was in if you want to get back into the historical side of it is back in the the date that they really put it there was about 1539. And DeSoto was the one that got tagged with bringing them into the end of the Caribbean, which come up through the Florida Keys and into Florida and so forth and so on. But regardless of who gets blamed for that, they were brought here as a livestock species, as people started to colonize the country from East moving west, they brought him in as a livestock species to be able to easily transport that species with them. Well as that transportation was going east to west, sometimes it could be a weather event, or it may be a season or something of that nature, that would hold up those wagon trains as they move through. And whenever that situation passed, and they were able to get back on track again, many times they weren't able to collect all the livestock species that they draw. Pigs being one of them cattle sometimes got left behind. But they were basically dribbled along the trail and seed populations, and they just exploded from that point on. And then there were some other population spikes that happened throughout the United States that we saw a really huge increase. And one of those was back in the 1930s. Whenever you think about the Dust Bowl, the depression and things of that nature in the 30s. But one of the things in that economic downturn is that people will still at that time, some had expendable income, and they were willing to pay for their hobbies. So what we saw in Texas and a lot of the other southern states is that traditionally, in that time, timeframe, track size was really, really large. So there were people that saw the opportunity as a land owner to lease out their property to these individuals that had expendable income for hunting opportunity. Well, part of the thing just like today, wherever you go in there for a hunting or recreational opportunity, you don't want to just sit around the campfire and tell lies here, you actually want to point and go hunt something. So we saw in the 1930s, with the increase and private hunting lease occurrence, that we also saw a number of wild pigs that were being brought into these locations, too. Increase the shot opportunities, those recreational pleasures. So that was a big increase in the number of pigs that were there. And then whenever the the men and women come back from the from World War Two was another unbelievable population increase, because you think about the economy whenever whenever World War Two was over, the economy was booming, we were we were really, really doing well. And instead of those folks, when they got off those ships coming back from overseas, instead of going back to the farm and picking that plow up or that, that that shovel, they went to the urban population centers to follow the jobs to follow the good paychecks, well, now that that expendable income is in their pocket to go buy food off the shelf, rather than going back to the, to the to the brush in that in the brambles in the woods to look for something to eat. And again, we took the foot off the gas pedal of the management on that species, and it's just, unbelievably I mean, it's a fascinating species. And I don't say that with a passionate thought, in my mind, as far as good, they are fascinating in the fact that they are unbelievably reproductively efficient, they are adaptive to any situation that you put them in. And they're extraordinarily intelligent. So they're the, basically the bottom, if you wanted to say of an exotic species that can occupy anything that you've been anywhere you put them. 

[Yeager]  It's not like, it's not like the exotic, that needs protection, the animal that needs the protection of like, a bald eagle or a dodo or whatever, you know, whatever the animal is that needs this thing can adapt. And, and when and when you saying the out migration off the farm. So basically the eyes and ears of people that you know this boy, I'm gonna take care of this thing tonight, when there's no one to see that it just one becomes two becomes four, it's compound interest of problems very quickly.

[Sumrall]  Yes, very, very quickly. And now we're seeing it too. And you look at the land ownership trends across the country, everyone likes the opportunity to own land, there's just unbelievable benefits there of owning your own land. And one of the things that we will see that was in that expansion of pig populations across the country, is that the number one limiting factor for pigs is war. So you look at an arid environment, whether that's a rocky environment, or just flat land that you would find in Kansas or Nebraska or something like that. One of the things that typically it's devoid of is water. Well, whenever we have the tent, the trend that's been going on now for the last 15 years is a heavy influence on land fragmentation is that whenever somebody buys a piece of property, if it is, if it doesn't have what they're looking for, they immediately put that on there. And if they buy a piece of property for any given reason, it doesn't have water, well, they're not putting whales in the ground to water pigs. If they're buying land for agriculture, they need to use it for crops or for cattle or for whatever, and they may be buying a piece of property for the native wildlife species. But the indirect beneficiary of all of those decisions is going to be a pig, where we can definitely see a quick expansion in those those harsher areas just because of the in the introduction of water whales, because now if you think about whenever waterways are put down, how far apart are you going to put a waterwheel? Well, if you've got livestock, you're going to put water wells close enough that if you have a cow that gets between two water wells, she can make it to one of those water sources before she dies of thirst. Well, if they're close enough for livestock species like that, to traverse the landscape, pigs can do it in a fraction of the time. So whenever you look at those harsh environments, pigs can go into those areas and flip over enough rocks to find enough grubs and beetles and bugs, and so forth and so on just to exist until they wait for those plentiful resource times of the year. And they'll crank out a litter of pigs in a very short period of time. So that fragmentation is a big issue. 

[Yeager]  So not only can they reproduce quickly, they'll eat anything that can operate on minimal water. So yes, a lake or river watering tank provides a problem. We know they're detrimental to crops, are they detrimental to other livestock? You mentioned the cow that might be between two sources. What's the nature battle there?

[Sumrall]  Well, when we start looking at native wildlife populations it is pretty catastrophic. Because I mean, anywhere you go around the world, if it's a native population there, there are other native species there to control that number. What I mean is basically that you've got the coyotes here to control rabbits, you've got the excessive deer numbers or so forth and so on. There's no natural predator for the pig. So basically, whenever we get to the point where pigs weaned. And at 35-40 pounds, there is not a natural predator that's native to North America that's going to see that pig as a food source to the capacity of reducing numbers, it's just not going to happen. So in the challenges that pigs pose on existing wildlife is that we know and again to going back to just libraries of research out there that shows that pigs are just unbelievably catastrophic. On ground nesting birds like quail and turkeys, you can decimate a population of those birds species in a very short period of time, their life expectancy, your life range is not that long. And it doesn't take very many egg clutches to be lost before you devastate that population. Now, one of the things that we can draw somewhat of a correlation to on the larger species out there is based on agriculture knowing we know just that I'm talking from research in Texas, is that before I started work for big break, I work for Texas a&m University. So we have to base everything on research that we know in the state of Texas that the pig with a wild pig is the number two predator on kid goats and lambs only behind the coyote. Well, you know, it's a further distance. Second, it's not like knocking on the coyotes, back door. They they're going to overtake them, but it's still there, the number two predator and all nights those livestock species, the reason that we that I bring that up is that we can quantify the loss of livestock attributed to wildlife or to pigs because we know we started with Now my question is, is how many deer fawns were born in the county that you're at right now? Last spring? There's no way of no no one no way to know, right? But there's a way for us to look at this and say, okay, a kid, goat or or lamb is going to be roughly the size of a deer fawn whenever they're born. Well, if a pig is going across the landscape and just happens upon a deer fall, and it's bedded there, that deer fawn doesn't stand a chance. So it's going to be detrimental in every capacity that what we see in native wildlife. And then also, then you think about this as well, is that we're talking about the species out there with a heartbeat. Now let's talk about the species out there that doesn't have the heartbeat when I'm talking about plants. We've got native plant populations out there, that if you can't grow the plants, you can't grow the animals. Well, whenever pigs come in, and just because of their knavery, as far as the dietary preference, plants are about 80 to 90% of the pigs diet. And whenever we look at that unbelievably high level of plant matter that's in their diet, we see pigs quite often change the whole ecosystem in a given area or a region there because of what their preferences are. They busted up the ground, they're tearing things apart, that our native species are depending on so if you think about it like this, is that what the turkey poults feed on wild born turkeys are wild hatched turkeys? Well, Dad's turkeys are heavy on the bug populations, what's there? Well, whenever you have pigs that come into an area and they decimate the native vegetation, well, that insect population was evolved to feed on a given plant base, a plant community. Whenever you alter that plant community substantially, you're going to obviously alter that insect population there as well. And so now we see some other extenuating situations where pigs have impact on there. Now all of this to be said is that one thing about research, the more that we think that we know about a species, the more doors that opens up to say, we really need to explore this a little more. So we know some macro findings out there that we can definitely put our thumb on as far as pigs and their impacts and so forth. But as far as to really get down in there and hit it with a fine tooth comb. There's just so much more research is needed. 

[Yeager]  It's the old adage, Aaron, in academic life, the more you know, the less you know.

[Sumrall]  Absolutely.

[Yeager]  What you're finding. Aaron, I want to know if there is a plant particular that is targeted? I mean, is there something in that diet? Is it corn, is it? Do they like a soybean? Do they like a sorghum plant? Or is it just anything? That's as you said, non heartbeat.

[Sumrall]  Right. Well, one of the things they do have some tendencies and preferences and things just like anything else would. So if there's that given crop as far as agriculture production is concerned, yeah, they'd rather eat corn over soybeans. But what's going to happen is if you're, if you're in any part of your agriculture rotation, where it's going to be a heavy plant of soybeans that year, yeah, they're gonna eat those soybeans as well. The areas that they have rice, you're going to have them concerned about bustin rice levees down and losing your water and so forth and so on. The other places that will we see that they're changing? plant communities pretty substantially are on your large producing trees like your oaks and your pecan, those seeds there, those acorns and those pecans are extremely high protein in their in, in a perfectly packed up little nut. So whenever you've got those large nuts, they're high protein, they're high quality, they're going in pigs will go into an area and decimate that seed production, where we're seeing a decrease in regeneration of some of those large seed producing plants in those areas where those pig populations are just out of control. So if you keep a lot of your native plants, you need to make sure that you manage those pig numbers accordingly. Or you're going to be left with whatever is a general plant and we got general wildlife species, we got general plant species, you're going to end up with all of those types of species, which is going to just decimate your biodiversity, both plant and animal.

[Yeager]  We have you mentioned deer earlier, I mean, there'll be places that will put large tall fences up to keep deer from hopping into say, an apple orchard or some type of fruit tree. Is that even a tiny fence gonna handle being able to keep out this animal?

[Sumrall]  Well, the funny thing is, when we talk amongst, I guess as far as researchers and land managers and everything yields, that fence question comes up quite often about possibly fencing, pigs out of sensitive areas, breeding locations, nesting locations, riparian zones, and so forth. And in the, the tongue in cheek comment, or that we always refer to as man, any fence that will hold water in will hold a pig. So, you know, we don't have a fancy got to hold water. So it's just the fact that it's going to be anything a pig can get their nose under or through, eventually they're going to go go go through it, go around it go wherever, obviously to then we have the concerns there in place that that if you have those those fences in certain areas, yeah, you get a tree on it, it's gonna go down, you get a flood event, and it's got to catch enough debris and wash it out. So fences will buy you some time. In certain situations, it's just going to be one of those those are going to be cost effective for the resource that you're trying to protect for a short period of time. So yeah, we get people that put fences up around all kinds of crops, and they work for a while. But the other thing that really drives that bus for pigs to have the incentive to not respect the fence is going to be stressful conditions. If we get stressful conditions, and they are limited in the resources that they have on the outside of that fence, they're going to do everything they can to find a way into that fence. 

[Yeager]  The more you keep me out the more I want in. Absolutely. Aaron you mentioned Pig Brig. I need you to even define what that is, what is that?

[Sumrall]  Pig Brig is the trap itself is the only patented net trap system on the planet intended for catching pigs. So pig rig is a trap system and then Pig Big, Pig Brig trap systems is the company so basically the trap is the definition of our company and it's a whole team environment. So is the Pig Brig is a trap system that can be easily deployed, it can be a backpack that can use the existing trees to to set up or it can use posts that you would typically find in any livestock production location. So it's a it's a system that we develop that in necessity on a project that we have that's ongoing in Guam, where we're responsible for controlling non native pigs in Guam in a jungle and the challenges of the jungle One is there's no infrastructure than the number two thing specific to Guam. And it's really what drove the the nail home that we had to come up with something that was innovative and out of the box is in Guam, you cannot drive post or you can AND and OR you cannot dig post holes because of onyx unexploded ordnance still in the ground from World War Two, so that you had to use the existing trees to be able to set the trap. And early on Yeah, we tried to use prefab metal panels to attach the trees. But the challenge with the prefab panel is that it didn't seal closely to the ground and the pigs could get their nose under the trap under those prefab panels. Well with a net system, it conforms to any shape of the ground. We don't have to have level surfaces. And like I said with being in a jungle, we can fold that net and backpack that net to wherever the pigs are, and we can follow those pigs quickly to wherever they go to. So it was a necessary deal. 

[Yeager]  And these are live traps.

[Sumrall]  They they are and whenever we catch those pigs it's the only true multi catch trap that's out there because truly if you look at the system is is it's a 360 degree catch gait if you really want to call it that, because pigs can come to that trap from any direction, the net is on the ground. And they just, it simply hedges the natural tendency of pigs to route. So the nets are on the ground and as those pigs want to go into that net, they fall in just by pushing onto that net. The net slides up and over their back slides down behind them, many times they don't even realize they've been caught. And with a continual catch, if you look at the way that pigs will cover a given landscape, whenever they're feeding, you may have pigs over two 300 yards in a given area, feeding on whatever is available there. But one thing about pigs is that they are already going to be led by matriarchal female. Well, wherever she goes, the rest of them is gonna go. So if you've got a system like what we have, and you get those pigs to funnel in when they choose to when they want to, we don't have to stay up and watch a camera to shed a catch gate, we let the pigs take care of their own. So and as a matter of fact, God like last night this morning before, shortly after I got up, I had a call from a gentleman that I worked closely with in Georgia. And last night, right and just a little bit after dark, he had eight pigs go into his trap, decided, You know what, I'm gonna sleep tonight, I'm not gonna mess with him. " It's still early, but I'm just gonna leave him there. He got there this morning to clear the trap. And he had 29 pigs. Oh, so whenever he went to bed, he thought he had eight. And he was happy with what he had. But whenever he got there this morning, he's gotten near 30 pigs, and many of those were bred females.

[Yeager]  So a win there to get rid of that leader. Is there anything to do? I mean, you mentioned the protein source. I mean, are these animals that are put down? Or they're not processed? They're not? Is there any value that this thing can provide this wild?

[Sumrall]   And well, the one thing is, we need to look at what the destruction is on a pig. Oh, as far as on an annual basis, a lot of the states are putting those numbers together. Texas and Oklahoma have already done that sometime back. I know Georgia is working on it. Florida is working on it and so forth. But the number that's been put out there by many states is that for every heart beating pig on the landscape, what level of damage are they causing? So for Texas and Oklahoma, the two that we have, that's quick, that's that's there. Now, Texas is seeing that pigs are causing about $300 in damage per animal per year. Oklahoma has that number set at $390 per animal per year. So whenever we think about what kind of incentives or advantages do we have? Well, if you didn't take care of some of those population numbers, what are you going to be losing out of your back pocket and damage from one year to the next? I understand where you're talking about to is like, Okay, we've got a captured animal here, what are the other thoughts that we can do with this animal. And that's going to be largely governed by what state law says you can do. So some state laws are pretty stringent that says that once that animal is in that trap, they have to be dispatched in that trap, where other there's two or three states out there and three states out there, Texas, Oklahoma, and Florida do have abilities there for for captured live pigs to be transported alive, but only to approve locations. It's not that you can trap them at your place and bring them to my place and turn them loose. So they can only go to certain locations. The other big concern out there that we hear quite often from people is why don't we make this huge protein source into the public food source. And so the number one guiding reason for that is it's not state inspected. So that pork is allowed, there's no processes in place for that to be state inspected. So it's very limited in where you can go with it. In Texas, there are two facilities in the state here that only process wild pigs. And it's just like any other process product in those two facilities is where is the market availability is to go with that meat. So wherever they can go, that's where they go. And that's all they processes wild pig.

[Yeager]  It's like any crop or crop of plant or meat source there is someone who basically in the promotion side goes and gets together 10 chefs and says, Hey, you should cook with this. There's not the wild delicacy and see Aaron here to our Eastern Illinois, they had started to that was one of the farther north points of the wild of the Asian carp the fish that would jump right I know they had that problem in Missouri. They were trying to find ways to process that fish and find a way into a kitchen somewhere and as of now I don't think it's been a real widespread thing and it doesn't sound like the wild boar tastes any different.

[Sumrall]  Well and one of the things that I tend to hedge on the side of humanity on this situation and what I mean by that is you look at what the domestic pork industry is right now. It's not doing well the pork the domestic pork numbers are low as far as what those people that are out there depending on producing Domestic pork, to feed their families to pay their bills and so forth. The numbers are just not good for them. So the thing to keep in mind is that if we were to infuse that many pounds of wild pork into that domestic food source, how many more dollars would we be taking away from that domestically produced pork. And again, those dollars are attached to families that have kids and have bills and have everything else. And by putting that out there, you're just going to be hurting that pork producer that's already trying to do everything they can to stay afloat. 

[Yeager]  And that's a heavy regulated industry. Those confinements are very tight. They're trying to keep disease out. You have no idea what disease is in some of these wild pigs. Right. Yeah.

[Sumrall]  Right. Right. And that's one of those things. I mean, we know that there's, they can potentially harbor diseases, but there is no way that you're going to look at an animal in front of you and say that animal has a disease or that animal does not, there's no way short of blood test.

[Yeager]  You mentioned the several States here, Texas, Oklahoma, Florida, Georgia, all the what's the migration north, like Where is this an animal that can survive my typical Midwest winter?

[Sumrall]  Absolutely, yeah. And what we laugh about, too, is that the occupation of wild pigs cover the country at 75 miles an hour. And what we mean by that is there is a huge challenge out there that law enforcement has with illegal transportation, with that pig being a wild exotic species, whether it be an exotic, there's federal laws in place that says you can't cross state lines with that live animal. But what we see quite often is like where you're talking about in the Midwest as the number one example I use, is there's pretty much every week, I will get a call from somebody from the Midwest, that is wanting to come to Texas, or to Louisiana, or to Georgia to hunt wild pigs, because of the recreational fun that it is for them to do that, well, whenever they come down to the south. And they enjoy these mild winters that we have comparable to where you're at. And they have fun. And after, after these pigs and whatnot, whenever it comes time to make that second trip, they don't want to drive 25 hours one way to go to hunt pigs. So what they do, and I get people calling all the time from the Midwest, wanting to know where they can find pigs down here to transport back up north. So that's something that's going to be a major, major concern for the Midwest, and where you're at is illegal transportation, because what we see in research is that the natural progression of pigs on their own is about eight to 18 miles a year. So depending on the area, they'll naturally move north somewhere between eight and 18 miles, they're not going to get to you real fast on their own, unless there is an established population there that just bubbles out from that, that population establishment is going to be from that illegal transportation where you're at. The other concern it that there are another thought that comes to mind as there is that you can handle your winters. Well, one of the things to think about is Which direction are the pigs going to come from? Okay, so yeah, you can have the pigs come in from the south at 75 miles an hour, but not far from you across the Canadian border, they have pig issues there. So in those pigs, those numbers there can easily move just as easily. Now what we say that they will somewhat slow that movement from the South to the North is a wildlife rule that's out there. That's all wildlife. Freshmen learn is Bergmann's Rule. And in Bergmann's Rule, basically, what it says is, as the further you go north, the larger body capacity, you have those shorter legs, the shorter ears to keep that blood to the core of the body, so you can handle colder weather. What if you look at the pigs that I have right here in southeast Texas, you're going to find an animal that's more tubular in shape, that's a finer bone, bigger ears, because pigs don't sweat so that blood has to make it to the surface of the body to be able to to regulate temperature. Whereas if you took that pig in the south, and you moved it up to where you're at, in the Midwest, it's gonna be a little bit tougher on him to be able to get an establishment there because of the body's shape and structure. But if you've got a mild winter, like what you're talking about this year, they wouldn't have any trouble. Now the concern would be what about those big animals that are still a wild pig, they're still the same genetics, but through natural selection that are in Canada, bigger, more robust body, shorter legs that are built for handling the cold, they can move south a heck of a lot easier than what these pigs in the deep south can move north. So you've got to think about where are they going to come that could come from both directions. So yeah, y'all got it. Y'all got a slippery slope right there with where you're at because you got plenty of agriculture there for them to use as a food source. You got plenty of other natural things that are in place. They can hold those Pigs, the only thing that's going to keep them from establishing to the point that they are now is number one, the laws need to be proactive to prevent that from happening in the future. And then number two, we you need to make sure that people are aware that the knowledge is out there of what these animals are going to do, should they ever get their feet established in a given area, once they're dug in, they're gonna be tough to get rid of.

[Yeager]  And that's obvious. And I've watched so many videos of end of eighth row harvest and 30 animals come out. And I've seen videos, yes, where there's somebody at the end with a weapon, trying to take out some of those animals, and they might only get half or a third. So that's not always the most efficient answer to but there it is an answer. So Aaron, we could do this. And I know, before we started rolling, we talked about, you know, what do we want to do in the future? I absolutely know, I'm going to have a ton of questions from people that have watched this that are going to have more. So if you're willing, Aaron, we will pick this up another time with some more questions and more answers. You good with that?

[Sumrall]  You bet. Yeah, anything we can help? In the meantime, give us a call Big Rig at 833-744-2744 or pigbrig.com. You will talk to one of us, we're gonna be there to answer the phones. And if you look it up on there and see anybody that's on our team page, and specifically want to talk to anybody on that team page. Just tell them when you call me and I want to talk to John or I want to talk to Aaron or I want to talk to Tony or Margaret, then they're going to get you to those people. 

[Yeager]  Sounds great. Aaron, thank you so very much for the time. Appreciate it. Thank you. Appreciate your time. New episodes of this podcast come out each and every Tuesday. Again. Please send an email to MarkettoMarket@IowaPBS.ORG. For any questions, follow up things that you want to know about this topic of wild hogs. We'll bring Aaron back and have another conversation. Thank you for watching. We'll see you next Tuesday with a new episode as we come out each and every week. Bye bye.