HPAI connection made in Iowa State University research

We're going into the lab this week for the MToM podcast. Hi, I'm Paul Yeager. This episode is a production of like all of them, Market to Market. And Iowa PBS. That's our originating station here in Iowa, which has also been, I won't quite say the center, but very much in the middle of the HPAI outbreak both in poultry and now there's been outbreaks in the dairy barn. So we've already kind of talked about some of that connection. We've done past stories on market to market, but how the two have been connected and how it was a couple of old classmates or colleagues who had been at Iowa State University at the same time having conversations about what they saw. But we're going to go into the lab at Iowa State and find out about the receptors. We're going to talk heavily about receptors and what exactly that means and what scientists are learning about this transition into dairy cattle and what has happened. So we're going to be extremely scientific today. Go back a couple of times. if you want to rewind and listen to something again, that is what we're here to do. This is part of the learning process. Doctor Todd Bell and Doctor Rahul Nelli are at Iowa State. They co-authored a paper about this topic and they're just trying to they have lots of questions. I have lots of questions. Hopefully you'll get some answers here in this installment of the MToM show podcast. When we talk about Ames, there's this sports branding about teams. But it truly Doctor Bell is a team, in every academic aspect. Talk about the team structure in Vet Med and why you have to follow such a structure.

[Todd Bell] Now, Paul, first of all, yeah, thanks for taking the time today and would totally agree. What we're doing is very much a team focused endeavor. You know, public health and science in general is a team game and it's a long game. Right. And to do it right, you have to have the proper team focused in the right areas to get that job done. And Iowa State, we're very fortunate, that we've got the resources to do that. And we've got the expertise both at Iowa State and in the Ames community in general, to kind of look at important one health, topics, as they emerge in particular, we're, you know, focused on high path avian influenza H5n1 today and kind of what is emerging there. And our team here at Iowa State is really focused on kind of getting after that and also collaborating with our partners here in Ames National Animal Disease center, National Vet Services labs, and really trying to understand this pathogen that is as more as it's emerging to, you know, kind of make sure that we're watching out for for the members of our state as well as, you know, the members of, the greater community.

[Yeager] You just described partners in their, who rings who first, when something like, High Path starts emerging again is the, are the feds calling all hands? Are you calling the feds to say, hey, will help? How does that work?

[Bell] That's a great question, Paul. And I think it's important, first of all, to have these connections ahead of time to make sure that these phone calls can be made that you're referring to. And that can happen fairly quickly. So in this particular instance, I'll take a step back and kind of talk about the outbreak initially and then talk about who got involved and when. So in the spring of this year there were some cattle that were sick in Texas. There were some Iowa State graduates down there. They were amongst kind of what was going on, and they decided to contact the veterinary diagnostic lab at Iowa State, knowing the breadth and depth of experience that that lab has and, and the world class expertise. And so they sent some samples up to the team at Iowa State, kind of led by Eric Burrough and Drew Magstadt and Pat Gordon and Rodger Main, just to name a few. to figure out what was going on on these sick cattle in Texas. And lo and behold, they did a series of tests which to me is still phenomenal, that they had the wherewithal to test for high path avian influenza in milk samples from cattle. But they did that, and they found that indeed, these cattle that were getting sick in Texas were from avian influenza, in particular, high path avian influenza, H5N1. And so from that point in time, you have to reach across town here and, and Ames, the national meat services labs, because while we can look at that at the vet diagnostic lab at Iowa State, you have to have federal confirmation in that lab also happens to be right here in Ames, Iowa. And so they reach across to our partners at VSL, who quickly confirmed that diagnosis. And so that really answered the what right. What is going on, what is happening in these large herds of cattle to make them sick? Right. And it was a new and novel thing where we found a bird flu virus in bovine mammary tissue. And then from our perspective, as kind of a more hardcore research focus role has it has a diagnostic focus, but it also does research. We started to ask the question of why, right. And then and that entails bringing in a larger group of researchers also, of which, many of those are kind of housed right here in the Ames area. And so I sat down with Doctor Paul Plummer, the associate dean for research at Iowa State. He knew my background, prior military background, and, and some of the expertise I have in kind of managing some of these larger, high consequence pathogens type outbreaks. And so we sat down and looked across the landscape at Iowa State to figure out who do we need to get involved, to figure out what's going on the quickest which we already had the what? But we wanted to know the why. Why is this virus getting into bovine mammary tissue? And so Paul and I again sat down and kind of looked across the landscape, figured out the experts that both Iowa State had, as well as the folks at the National Anamosa Center and across town, try to get these people together to start to ask the right questions and design the experiments to to answer the why. Why is this virus getting into the bovine memory tissue? So our role as an expert in influenza viruses he also in coronaviruses how these viruses bind to cells in particular a virus. to use an analogy as much like a key and a virus has to get inside of a cell and it has to find the right lock in the lock. In this case it would be a receptor. So that key lock mechanism, we found out, or we looked at this bovine memory tissue and found out the bovine mammary tissue and kind of this collection of scientists looking into this together found out that this bovine mammary tissue had, the kind of the lock for the key that is avian flu virus. So once we figured that out, we did some additional studies, also found out that the, human flu receptor is also on those same cells. And so that really was how the study was kind of generated and published. But, I'm going to kind of defer to Raul, to kind of explain more technical details. But from a broad perspective, that's kind of how this outbreak started. Who was initially involved answering the what and then how Doctor Plummer and I figured out and gathered experts to kind of understand the why behind it.

[Yeager] Well, Rahul. Yeah, go ahead to the why? Because I'm curious. Before you get to the why, I want to ask though, just as a curious mind, are you, when you start seeing that this is developing in dairy cows, do your antennae go off and say, I think I need to look into this? Had you already kind of started, a little more than a passing knowledge of what was happening?

[Rahul Nelli] That's right. Excuse me. thank you. Yeah. Paul. Like, you know. Yeah, yeah. immediately when the first thing, you know, reported. Or at least they got information, that first thing that strikes my mind is, oh, my God, like, do they have these receptors? And we actually completely ignored, looking at this in all along, you know, so indeed, we have ongoing research going on looking at the bovine receptors for coronaviruses because bovine, cattle are known to have, coronavirus infections. But, you know, we never thought an influenza A virus can affect bovine because this would be the first case, you know, you know, at least known first case. So then immediately the my thought was right. Why do they have these receptors and, you know, and there's very little known about these receptors, especially with the, on the mammary gland, you know, that's where the whole infection is going on very actively. And then that's when Neil and Todd reached out and said, you know, this is this is what we plan to do. And I looked at your papers. You know, this is all good. So do you want to be on board? And I said immediately jump in. And then, we started having those protocols already. We have established protocols to do this kind of work and then I, we immediately jumped in and we started working with this project.

[Yeager] When you talk about receptors, we all have them, right? I mean, that's all part of, the, I guess, define receptors for me just to make sure I have the right definition as we move forward in this discussion.

[Nelli] I mean, receptors are nothing but some protein molecules, right? These protein molecules like, you know, like you have it in meat, you have it in like milk, you know, so many different products we consume every day. These are same thing. And every day, you know, receptors are the protein. So these proteins are actually, you know, like crowned on top of each of these cells, right. And then they have different function. There could be a function like to, for this particular case, virus can use that receptor to enter gain into the cell. And the same receptor can actually use for a treatment option. So, you know, even for diabetes or something. So there could be so many functions for this protein, what we call as a receptor. But in this case influenza is smart enough. And it actually uses those receptors to gain entry into the cell. And these receptors are coated with sugar molecules called sialic acids. And these are the sialic acids which they are very, very fond of. And they have the affinity to and they bind to it. And in case of, most, most living, you know, are, vertebrate animals, at least you know how these receptors, especially the sialic acid, and then, what we, what we know based on the previous, influenza, research is, influenza viruses, which are adapted more to avian species. They're called, sialic acid alpha two three receptors and influenza receptor, which are more adapted to mammalian species. They're called alpha two six receptors. So now the first question is do we can we find these receptors or not. That's the first question. Then how can we find these receptors. Right. So there's a technique called lectins. Again we are using these again another kind of protein that specifically found only in plants. so far we don't know that these lectins are in animals, but at least we know they are abundant in plants. And using these lectins, they actually go and bind to those sialic acid receptors. Using that, approach, we took those plant lectins and used it on these animal tissues, and they identified what kind of receptors you have across the respiratory tract of cattle and even the mammary gland. And we found, you know, there are just, both, the mammalian receptors and the avian receptors, but more so the avian radar receptors are more abundant, across, all these tissues, that includes right from the trachea, all the way into the lungs and in mammary gland is so rich in, two three receptor. So this is why we think the virus probably has the affinity to bind, to these receptors, because this virus is coming from an alien species, at least from what we know so far, the high fat, highly pathogenic H5N1.

[Yeager] Well, Todd, I guess I'll ask you or Rahul, either one of you on this one, given the previous outbreaks strictly in poultry, with avian, I'm guessing some of this work had already been done determining some of the things you just talked about did. Are you, since you're in Iowa, and it's kind of been the center of a lot of this, outbreaks. Do you feel like your research is very current and up to date. Right? And that allows you to kind of jump in to the next level, that, that that was presented. Is that right? Todd?

[Bell] Yeah. So. And two Paul so, yeah, I would agree with that statement. Kind of number one. And I would say going back to our prior discussion, I think for the viewers, viruses kind of by their biologic nature, have to get inside of a cell in order to continue their life cycle, to continue to reproduce. And as a part of that, they have to find, like we said, that on the cell surface of every cell in your body, there are all these proteins called receptors, and they have to find that right one to bind to so they can get inside of that cell, put their genetic material on there and continue that life cycle because they're they're a parasite and they have to get inside of a cell. And that's the way they do that. So to your next question, have we been looking at this. Are we prepared. And I would say, there's been a multitude of researchers at Iowa State that are experts in avian influenza. Doctor Yuko Sado, Mohammad Olga are some folks that have been looking at this in general. And then more specifically at the receptor level, regionally has been doing that as well for a long time with not only this virus, but with other viruses and other species. So to that end, some of the testing and the methods that he just described have been well worked out, not over over years, but probably over a decade or longer kind of looking at this. So in that regard, yes, oftentimes we have a test or a capability that has already kind of, road ready. And we just have to point it in a different direction at a different problem in order to get after that problem, that road. Do you want to add to that?

[Nelli] I think that's spot on. That's really you know, that's what, you know, we always are prepared for all these protocols ready to go in case of any kind of emerging threats like, you know, in this case now with the H5n1 could be some other coronavirus or could be any, any virus or bacteria. But we have these protocols established, probably will modify a little bit to make that, you know, work for that particular pathogen. Yeah. I would, I would agree.

[Yeager] Well, frankly, science has, this we found in 2020, it has a polarizing effect on people in wanting to learn. Absolutely. And define everything that, that the researchers are saying. And then there's a group was like, not just give it to me in basics, and navigating that environment. Todd, how do you, keep people above you in, in the, in the chain of, of information who have to report to someone to keep them about why this research needs to keep moving forward and why you need to keep doing, all sorts of experiments to try to figure out all these different scenarios that could happen.

[Bell] Now, Paul, it's a great question. I appreciate that. And science communication in general is very hard to do, especially as you're kind of learning, as you go, and in particular, some viruses, you have past history with those. And like in this case, we've we at the scientific community, you know, kind of the royal we here in general have a lot of experience with influenza. But I don't know that anybody would have predicted we would have seen it showing up in bovine mammary glands. Right. And so what's you have to be able to study it and have to have the experts that know it. But you're constantly being surprised. And so I think from a science administration standpoint, what you have to do is be ready, ready with the people, ready with the infrastructure, ready with the assays, and be flexible enough where you've got that team and those capabilities, and you can turn it and focus it as you need to in the event that something is emerging and evolving. And again, that just I just came back to Iowa State, after 20 year absence in the fall. And I've been most impressed by with both the scientists as well as just the greater scientific leadership. Dean Grooms and president Winter state and everybody, Iowa State, that has enabled this, team to be flexible enough and robust enough to both understand what is going on now and to be able to pivot and kind of get after this moving forward. And that from a leadership perspective, I think those leaders need to be engaged and involved enough to know what you're doing and how you're doing it. They may not need to know every nitty gritty, technical detail about the assay that we're doing, but they have to be appraised of of kind of generally how we're we're moving generally, you know, maybe where our gaps are and what we need so they can respond to that as that outbreak occurs and help us in that regard. And additionally, we need to be able to communicate with the public in a way that is both, understandable. Right? So we have to be able to speak in plain terms, but yet we have to be able to, sometimes go to a breadth and depth that most maybe, maybe some folks may not want to digest on a daily basis. But science is not. It's constantly, moving and focusing in different areas. And it kind of almost evolves as these viruses evolve. And so, you know, I think folks have to have an understanding that the scientists don't know it all. We're scientists. We're doing experiments to understand and figure out. And as such, we don't have all the answers, and we might and things might change over time, especially as these viruses essentially evolve in real time in front of us. Rahul, have anything to add to that?

[Nelli] No, I think that's all great. You know, the one thing I would add, as you know, having those surveillance, right, because people are more hesitant, hey, why do we have to screen our herds, our why do we have to test our animals? Because if you screen it or can do a continuous surveillance, you know, this allows us to make those decisions. This allows us to get those biosecurity measures in place. And that's a mutual just the team, not just within the university is good. Also the team outside, you know, with the local veterinarians, you know, the state veterans, you know, and even the stakeholders like farmers, you know, the you know, all these we we collectively work together. And when we say it about one health, this is all one health. I would say just one health is not about just a human humans. It's also about the production animals. It's also about wild animals. It's also about like our daily environment, you know, so all that if we actually work as a team so we can address all these emerging pathogens, you know, on much rapid phase pace than what we have so far. And the technology will only help us to more at certain extent. But it's a team which makes it more pace would be like, like maybe 104 team actually makes it 100 for technology, makes ten fold. That's how I see it, you know.

[Bell] Absolutely. We're better together.

[Nelli] Yeah.

[Yeager] Yeah. Right. Rahul, as I asked Todd about, you know, talking to general public, you are probably communicating, I'm guessing, with fellow scientists who can quickly move past the language. They're not held up by terms or anything. And you're quickly saying, what about this? To this, to this, to this. How quickly are you trying to have and how wide is that network you are communicating with as you make a discovery and say, hey, did you see this? Did you see this? How quick does that ping pong for you?

[Nelli]  think we are always like, you know. Yeah, yeah. Throwing like these ideas, bouncing these ideas across different researchers. That includes like, you know, we I always constantly engage with other universities, especially because we I mean I'm more of a basic research. They call it like a translational research and basic research in the scientific community. So basic research is asking those, you know, very detailed, specific questions why in a translation is can you apply this research immediately for the biosecurity measure. So that kind of way? So when we're talking about these basic research questions, we go to the conferences. We go and meet these people or get on the zoom calls. You know, get to those meetings on with CDC and bounce us off those ideas. Hey, you know, what's going on in other part of the world, or maybe the other side of this, another state, another university. What are they doing? And what is that which is needs to be done. And then we often are actually requested or at least, you know, notified by the state and federal authorities say, hey, we are having this issue, you know, did did you think about it? So one of the things would be like, you know, how can you do this surveillance, right. For a translational research point. You know, you have these, animals, you know, spreading the virus. How is this happening? So we don't know yet. And the clear answer, we were thinking it's only movement of animals. Maybe not just movement of animals. Is it? Cause movement of people, movement of equipment, movement of trucks. So there could be so many factors why the virus is spreading. But, you know, to address those, you know this would we as again, as I said, we know we need to be collectively working together. Hey, we did this. Yeah. And then, already there are a few papers out coming. came out saying b h plays a factor, for, inactivating the virus. You know, the virus can stay outside for more than three hours. So those are all those researchers we are putting all together and, and making those, connections and say, hey, maybe this is the biosecurity measure we should take. and then we have a great teams, you know, again, you know, we're, led by Doctor Brad Gardam, you know, so he's actually working with the teams on, on the clinical side and that implementing some of this. Yeah, that works and doesn't work. So now we got the question back. Now it didn't work. So now go back to your drawing boards, reassess your, strategy and maybe come with a different solution. So that's how it's a dynamic process. It has to evolve. And you need to learn from the clinics. And you need to, you know, give the feedback on and it has to go to the data should follow on board the direction. That way you can improve this, this, this, this whole process.

[Yeager] Well, and I think of the farmer who is in a dairy, and wherever they're at and they read a paper or their vet reads the paper and sees, well, let's try this. And we don't really know anything firm yet, but we think this might help. So in that sense, quickly you are getting even more feedback then just outside of the research. And it might not be exactly what you're looking for, but I would imagine it's a little bit of a confirmation of the work that you've been doing.

[Nelli] Yeah. That's right. Yeah.

[Bell] You yeah I know, so maybe I'll take a first swing at that. Paul. So yeah, it's I would say to Rahul’s point, there's kind of a continuous feedback loop between what we're doing and the extension veterinarians at Iowa State and maybe some of the veterinarians that they're interfacing with on the farms. With respect to what are they seeing? And then based on what they're seeing, what studies should we be doing? Right. And then our studies that we're doing, hopefully when we come up with some evidence or conclusions, like, for example, that the bovine mammary gland has the receptors for both the avian flu and the mammalian flu. They can use that information, they being either extension veterinarians or, some of the regulatory veterinarians to make biosecurity decisions. Making those calls is not our call. We're the research focus. We're trying to understand the why. And then they take that information and they can make some recommendations based on that. But your question. Paul, I think we want to have that continuous feedback to make sure that as we're learning, we're getting better and better, meeting our biosecurity decisions or even more informed where we know maybe the virus may or may not be spreading or may or may not be, kind of getting around a different farm. So there's this constant iterative process to make sure that we're getting better.

[Nelli] Yeah. No, I think that's, that's, that sums up the what we are talking about here. So one other thing is like we have this, one of the requests saying like, hey, how can we do, daily surveillance? Right? So one of the main we have is can we do air sampling? Can we do the Deep wipes? You know, those are all those, some of these techniques have been well established, well standardized in the, pig production. So can we implement those in the daily production? So those kind of things, you know, okay, we have this maybe try this, you know, so those kind of biosecurity measures, you know, our extension folk are already working on it and they're doing a good job on that. So yeah, we appreciate all their efforts, you know, and, and the local areas in Iowa.

[Yeager] Rahul, I'm sure you've already made it. I think you've kind of said it. You always have questions about things. What's the next big question that you're trying to address. Right. I'm not trying to ask you to break news or anything like that, but what's the next series of questions that you think, are going to be kind of your attention for the next few weeks?

[Nelli] Yeah. I mean, the big question for me right now is like, you know, the receptors are there all along, right? Like since the cattle were there probably are receptors. We didn't look at it. So until today, right now, we looked at it. You know, what changed in the virus? To be able to bind to the receptor. We don't know yet. So what kind of, virus mutation happen to actually bind to those receptors? Is it the virus binding only to two three, or is it binding to both the avian and mammalian receptors? Are is it, you know, bound and then start replicating and stays only in the mammary gland or is it going into the systemic? So if it's going into systemic, what's causing that virus to go in systemic like we know for sure, influenza are mostly, you know, respiratory tract infection in most mammals and even birds, you know, they can also do intestinal replication. So basically the birds can shed a lot of virus, you know, in the, in the feces. But this is the first time we are seeing, you know, in a mammary gland, you know, how did it actually started in the mammary gland. Why not in a respiratory tract. What could be the reason? So those are all the next question. There's so much to look at, so much curiosity from my side. it just, at a time, you know, time is our enemy here. So, you know, we want answers, but, you know, we just need to do this experiment. Experiments takes time.

[Yeager] And you have to do podcast interviews too, that always, you know, that cuts away from your lab time.

[Bell] Yeah, I no, we appreciate you, Paul. Kind of, telling our story here today. But to Rahul’s  point as well as, you know, what other species might be infected, those are questions we're asking in what other, you know, farm animals be susceptible and by what routes, you know, and that's a kind of a question like why in mammary gland and how did it get there? Is it getting in. Are they ingesting it. Are they inhaling. And are they surface contact where there is feces in the environment and the utter is somehow getting there? You know, how is that virus getting in and from our perspective as researchers, we really want to know not only, you know, why it's in that particular organ, but Terrell's point, you know, what organs can it get into and by what entry routes, what species can get it, can it get into and by what entry routes in this virus? unfortunately, now has been in the US since late 2021 and it was in birds initially, and now it's spread in multiple different mammalian species. And that's fairly concerning. So, you know, we're asking ourselves why is that happening? What species may be next by what routes and what implications does that have for public health. Right. And then as, as understanding that then how do we use that to inform biosecurity measures to stop that transmission, you know, to make sure that these viruses are not transmitting and that they're not in particular maybe, getting into having co-infections where that, that would potentially be a large problem if we had a co-infection in the same host with, with avian flu in, in mammalian for that's something we really want to avoid.

[Nelli] Yeah.

[Yeager] Well and when you talk about other species that's where my outside perspective I, I mean, the dairy industry in the United States is a lot different than it used to be, where it is very much, I won't say confined, but that's probably the closest word of these large dairies are large, and they are really only handling dairies.

[Yeager] But there are some that are 50 or 100, but we also have hogs, and we also have stock cows, and we have these other things. And that's that other species talk that I would imagine as a producer that really catches my interest. And Todd, I'm guessing that's, maybe up above you to, people are saying that's the question we need to answer rather quickly too.

[Bell] I would defer to I will on this after I give a brief, answer. But yes, I would say absolutely. And specifically above our level, you know, we want to make sure that as scientists, like we were talking about before, that community is interfaced appropriately. So you can let these other folks know, maybe even before the publications come out, what you're seeing, and so they can start taking steps in measures from a biosecurity perspective, you know, like I said, other species like you mentioned, on a farm, we want to know if there are cattle on that farm, if there are other things on that farm, what is maybe susceptible. And then again, how do we stop that? We've seen meerkats on a lot of these farms that are dying, you know, why is that happening? How do we stop that? And then again, to all, science is better again if it's a team effort. But if it's also, these folks are communicating with one another again to, to inform your decisions, to inform your experiments. We've been talking a lot with the National Animal Center. There. Amazing flu experts over there. One of my 2002 vet school classmates, Amy Baker over there, and we trust and respect her and been asking her help and Doctor Bailey Arruda and Doctor Mark Ackermann, the director over there. These guys are experts in this and we want them to kind of be in the same thought process as us regarding, you know, what questions are we asking? Are those the right ones? Are we sending them our experiments the right way? So we only do them a limited number of times in the data that we get, we can take action on. Right. And so having enough minds in the room that are maybe thinking about it in a slightly different way helps. It refines that science. And and again, it helps science happen faster. And it really helps policymakers and decision makers make decisions. not in a vacuum, but with some, some, hard facts that they can use to make those decisions. But roll on and on. You have any thoughts on that?

[Nelli] Yeah. I mean, I want to add something here. So I mean, I mean Iowa is an agrarian state, right. So we often forget, you know, there's another angle to this algorithms and not just the intensive farming, you know, like the production animal industrial scale production, farming. But we also have a migratory corridor for a large number of birds. So there's like so many birds cross through our state during this migration phase. And then these birds often interact with other bird populations in different islands, you know, maybe in South America and, go all the way to Canada. So there's interactions with other bird species. And that's where this, influenza is notorious to actually jump between birds, jump between species. That's always happening all the time. So even the H5n1, actually, you know, it was detected even in the most remote place on Earth, Antarctica, too. So some of these birds. So they actually are, moving from one bird species. And we when we are having these bird for coming over our, our production sites are our lakes are our farms, you know, so there's a likely chance, you know, there could be like, you know, there could be a dead bird, you know, having those kind of, highly pathogenic influenza virus or could be some other way. So we need to be agile and we need to be mindful. Okay. If you're seeing some dead birds, if you're seeing something, you know, obviously call for a local veterinarian or the Iowa DNR and make sure, okay, you know, what is that? You know, could have caused that. You know, maybe it's just an accident, but, you know, those kind of, you know, being cautious, being, you know, mindful of those things will help contain, you know, some of that, spread of this virus and then, yeah. And then most of the, our stakeholder does the good job. But, you know, occasionally we now or know that's one particular event can cause an outbreak situation. So what is that one? Nobody knows. But we all have to be vigilant on that thing. Yeah.

[Yeager] And we know it's a team effort. And we appreciate you taking breaks from your teams to help us stay informed. And we hope that, if someone's listening to this, going from farm to farm, that, they see something, I guess it's always even then security. See something? Say something. And the barn cats, the birds, the whatever it is that you just mentioned there. Doctor Neely is very important, so I appreciate both of your time. Thank you so very much for the insight here. And, continued, breakthroughs, if you have to, moving forward. Thank you.

[Nelli] Thank you, Paul. Thank you so much, Bob. Thanks for having us.

[Yeager] Last week, at the end of the podcast, we did a veiled hint thing. Okay, really? It was more like hitting you over the head with an anvil. a special thing that's coming. Still looking for some individuals who made it to the end of this podcast, who want to learn more about market to market each week, send me an email Paul.Yeager@iowapbs.org to be included in this special test club, I'm going to share you some information. So please, if you're interested, send me a note. Our production supervisor here is Chad Aubrey underneath with him doing the work as well. they all do it Sean Ingrassia, Kevin Rivers, Neil Kyer, Julie Knutson, and David Feingold,  are all helping make sure this podcast looks and sounds its best. David Miller is the executive producer of the TV show. I'm Paul Yeager. Thanks for watching. We'll see you next Tuesday with a new episode of the MToM show podcast.