Crop insurance and shrinking margins: setting the floor in these times - Tony Jesina

Hello everyone. I'm Paul Yeager, this is the MTM podcast. Glad to have you back in our studio this week. For one week. We're going to keep going on the road here as we approach the 50th season. The last couple of episodes have been from the Iowa State Fair. Both Jeff French and Don Roose have told us about their first interactions with Market to Market. Plus, we took some studio or some audience questions, and we'll continue to do that here on a road show coming up very soon. And then later this spring and into next summer. Keep an eye on the TV show as we start. Our look backs it rather quickly as well online. It's going to be some fun things. I can promise you this year we are going to post some classic episodes of the show. You're going to get to see just how dramatic things have changed, but yet also stayed the same. Which is a little bit true of our guest today, because crop insurance keeps evolving, but shrinking margins. Less price for a commodity. Sound familiar? Well, it's really happening hard here in 2024. Last year at this time, we talked with Tony Jesina from Farm Credit Services. We're going to do it again. And some of the discussions are the same. But there are some new things that have happened rather quickly and just how things can evolve. He's going to tell us some, some stories that he's heard from the fields, what producers are doing to shrink some of their expenses and, maybe some options. That might not be what you think are the best path forward. But when you think about it from a little higher viewpoint, it might just be what's needed. And it might make some big changes, in the industry that we hadn't even thought of, or at least are talking about out loud. So that's what we're going to talk about today. We'll get into crop insurance. We're going to talk margins. And of course, I have to ask the Iowa State grad about the Huskers. That's this episode of the MToM podcast. Here we go. New episodes come your way right now. It's an exciting time of year for a lot of people, for a lot of reasons. A lot of things all come together at one time. Once we get to this, Labor Day holiday, focus starts to change, crops start to change. But one thing that hasn't changed since the last time we talked is margins have been shrinking. What are you seeing here for farmers and what they're dealing with when it comes to margins of trying to grow and sell a crop?

[Tony Jesina] Yeah, Paul, unfortunately you're spot on that the trend is not our friend. since last time we talked. You know, if you look at commodity prices, whether it's corn, beans or weed, but that that trend looks really familiar to kind of the last time we had this, environment back in the, you know, 2011, 12, 13. So the 14 price decline, that's kind of like what's happening in 24. And then the flip side to that is the input prices. they really haven't really subsided yet. In fact, when we look at input prices, they're about 40% above where they were back in 2011. And so margins are tight.

[Yeager] And that's what we hear that constantly on the show about, you know, margins. Or I see farmers that will tweet not margins I'm sorry inputs. Every you know, the Farm Progress show is happening. And they're like, well, I doubt anybody is lowering their price 20 to 30% that we've seen for commodities. So at what point where is the pressure valve for inputs.

[Jesina] Yeah. But I think it varies a little bit. you see it on it's hard to adjust some of your inputs because you still want to produce a good crop. So it's going to take fertilizer, it's going to take seed. It's going to take, you know, you know, the right chemicals, machinery and equipment. So you start to adjust what you can. And so part of that's, you know, maybe you maybe don't treat equipment quite as often. you got to look at that. you look at are there some areas where you can save a few bucks? you know, cash rents, an area that, some people will look at, you know, land costs, you know, what are you you know, are you looking to expand? You might have to, you know, sharpen a pencil a little bit to see what can you really afford. And so, so inputs are are stubborn. They're sticky. to come down, you know, I'll pick on seed seeds. One of the hardest ones to come down. and so, so you look at ways to how can I get more out of this crop. And so that's things like maybe I need to look at my marketing strategy. Do I hold it as long, you know, storage costs could start to add up. So I start looking at maybe different ways to to merchandise my grain. and then you got to look at at the end of the day, it still boils down to what are my costs? What's within my control. and if inputs are hard to adjust, you got to start looking at, your debt. And, you know, is there a way to to better manage my debt, to free up some margin? So that's what some people are looking to have.

[Yeager] Well, the debt word gets us into interest rates, and they're not finding a lower rate than than maybe a loan. Do we know if a lot of people restructured loans when interest rates were lower?

[Jesina] Paul. Yeah, that was, almost everybody did less. And if you didn't, you know, shame on you. There was great opportunities, so to speak. when interest rates were, really low right before inflation really kicked in these last couple of years. And so as a result, a lot of producers did a great job of rebalancing their balance sheet. So, taking the opportunity to lock in some long term lower fixed interest rates. There's a lot of there's a lot of real estate debt, even housing debt that's, you know, has a 3 or 4 in front of it. operating costs are up. You know, you know, that kind of goes with the market. but generally operating expense, the interest expense on your operating loan isn't probably it's going to make or break your operation. It's it's that overall total debt load. So most did refinance and back then and that created some additional capacity last couple of years. We've had some great working capital. And so so that's what's helping weather the storm right now since last time we talked, is producers are starting to dip into that working capital a little bit. Thank heavens they have that. but as we, as we go through the cycle, if this kind of trend continues, you're going to see probably some, downward pressure on land values. we might see some, relief on interest rates, you know, we'll see what the fed does. but the other thing is, you know, you'll see consolidation and consolidation and probably didn't happen as much during the last cycle just because producers had that opportunity to kind of rebalance on their own and manage their cash flow accordingly. This time, you're probably looking at, some producers are going to have to look at some type of, liquidation. no, I'm not talking exit the industry, but you might have to look at situations where you have an underperforming farm, or maybe it doesn't quite fit in. Well, you know, with the geography of my operation. And so if margins get too tight and afraid of working capital, that's the next lever producers will pull us to say, maybe I need to liquidate that less productive asset and use that to pay down some debt so I can weather the storm.

[Yeager] A couple of things. I want to follow up their consolidation. What do you mean by are we talking brothers going together, farms going together or restructuring? What does consolidation mean for you?

[Jesina] Yep, that could mean all of that. And so yeah, if you think about, you know, the opportunity to work together, that might be a way to share machinery and equipment costs. You know, another big factor that's, happening over it is it's hard to get labor. And so sometimes you might have to find producers working together just because finding that labor source has been a challenge. And so so that's one way to do it. you might see consolidation in the sense of if I've got a lot of rented ground and, and that's stubborn in terms of maybe getting some relief on cash roads, as maybe I scale back my operations so that it's more within the confines of my equipment, my labor. And maybe that means someone else might be renting that ground. And so consolidation might mean, you know, condensing down my operation a little bit to.

[Yeager] In that definition, then it doesn't sound like farms are going to get larger, in the sense of acreage, but they might get larger with the number of people working on the same amount of acres, because if using the other half of what you just said, maybe somebody does get rid of something that's poor performing or not as profitable, or it isn't profitable, period. And and that, is that what I'm hearing?

[Jesina] So, yeah, that could be part of it. But there also could be producers, Paul, that, you know, maybe they're at that stage of life where, you know, they're kind of at the peak of their, you know, farming cycle. And maybe there's not another generation to come in. And so if margins get tight, they might say, you know what? It's been a good run. maybe I'll rent out my ground and maybe, maybe I'll do exit farming. So I do think that in this cycle you will see more exits than what we saw during the last cycle. Just because during the last cycle, there's more levers to pull to, I'd say kind of rebalance, restructure or kind of reconfigure, you know, your cost structure free operation where you don't have as many levers this time. So there could be, there's generally when you go through a cycle like this, you usually would see some level of consolidation of the number of operations. So some will get larger.

[Yeager] And younger, because I'm hearing you say those who were maybe 60, ten years ago are now 70. And they're like, I'm not. I'm done. Instead of or maybe those that were 70 or now 80 and they're done. So we might see a youth movement.

[Jesina] Absolutely. Yeah. And that's a great thing right. We need the next generation to continue on what we're doing. And so, you know, when prices are high and margins are good, you know, and if those were some of your best years of farming, it's like, well I'll wait another year or two before maybe pull that lever. And so now, yeah, I think you do see more opportunities for that next generation now. It's also challenging for that generation to come in just because, like you mentioned, input costs are high. land values are high. And so it takes a lot of capital to get in. So a lot of times it does take a partnership or, you know, an opportunity whether it's, you know, a father bringing in the daughter of the son. And that's kind of might be more of a teeter totter. I start to scale back my operation so you can kind of scale up yours, and you've got labor and energy and, and I'm ready to maybe slow down. And so you can see some of that happening.

[Yeager] Well, who helps conduct that teeter totter. Because some families don't like to talk about that. Who's going to help be the one that may force a hand to have that discussion?

[Jesina] Yeah. It's that some of the hardest conversations for producers to have because, nobody likes to talk about, you know, what happens if or or what's next. Generally it's the patriarchs. So it's the mom and dad are usually the ones that, need to have that conversation, but sometimes they're not comfortable having a lot of times they're not comfortable having that conversation because, for a few things, one, they might not want to talk about, you know, what it's like if they're not farming, okay. They've made a lifetime, a career, and and, and so sometimes you don't like to think about that next chapter of life. sometimes it might be a case where you've got multiple, children and the succession of the operation might mean some of those might be helping with operation and some might not be. And so, you know, and within the family it might feel like, are you picking winners and losers. And so that's always a difficult conversation around, you know, the Thanksgiving table or Christmas table. so sometimes you kind of kick that can down the road. But but that is kind of, I'd say probably the number one topic with a lot of producers is I know we need to talk about a transition plan. It's just hard to get started. And so there are people out there that can help with that.

[Yeager] Let's look at the lowering of land values. You mentioned that, a moment. What happens when land goes down in price?

[Jesina] Well, it's you know, it's a you think about supply and demand, but it's also, you know, we're trying to drive an economic return. And so if you look at, you know, what's the returns being generated, whether it's the cash rents or just through production. And the returns are much lower right now. So you generally will see some type of a, you know, the initial stages, you'll see a softening where land values quit going up. And I think we're kind of at that stage. And so where you start to see if things were to I'd say correct or reverse the first place you'll see it is probably on cash rents. You start to see some downward movement in cash rents, and then you'll start to see it in land sales where people won't be as aggressive because the returns aren't there, or they're trying to preserve some of their working capital when, when margins were really high and you had a lot of working capital, you know, then you could probably afford to pay, a top rate. and it didn't hurt you financially because you had, you know, the resources to make that work. It's just, you know, the economics are different right now. When you look at the returns on land versus what they were two, 3 or 4 years ago.

[Yeager] Well, where we got into some of the higher rents is those who are not on the farm saw huge sales of, you know, ridiculous numbers and go, well, I want mine to. Yeah, so is I, I've had this discussion with many, many people. and I'll say it again, there needs to be a conversation between renter and, and landowner or a renter and yeah, renter and landowner about what's realistic and maybe leaving 5 to $10 on the table might be beneficial if that's what you're in for. If you're only in for the money, it is America. And you can make whatever the market will allow. And I'm sure you'll find somebody that will pay it. However, there's a greater picture to be a part of this isn't there?

[Jesina] There is. yeah. It's the ones that we see work. Well, it's they view it as a partnership and and nobody wants to get rich or greedy at the expense of the other. If it's a true partnership. And so we've seen cases like that where, yeah, I'm not necessarily going to take top dollar for rent. But then you've got a tenant that's more likely because they know they're getting maybe a advantage in the market or a slight discount. They're more likely to to do the little things. You know, they're going to take care of the farm. They're going to make sure it's up on all the maintenance levels, nutrients. They're not going to mind the farm. They're the ones are going to fix the fence or fix the tile. And so at the end of the day, you probably end up at the same net result, because if someone's paying an extortionate rate, they're going to expect the landlord to keep everything top notch. And so but if it's a partnership and it's a fair rent, the tenant is going to do the right things, the landlord is going to do the right things, and we've seen times where margins were really high and we've seen the tenant say, I'm going to pay you a bonus. And, and then that's, you know, kind of rewards you for that long term partnership.

[Yeager] What else and margins are we needing to discuss here about, what can you can control because you can't control the price. You can control when you sell. And if you've been smart about things. But that ship has sailed on on a price at the market. So what else am I looking at as an option here?

[Jesina] Yeah. So, two things fall and they kind of go together. and it's really how do I maximize revenue? So to maximize revenue, minimize my risk. And, and so how do I get more net revenue? So how do we manage inputs, but also how do we maximize what we're getting in a declining market. And so we're seeing producers look at different ways to say how can I what are different levers I can pull. And forward marketing historically most years it's going to be an advantage. It's not going to an advantage. Every year. But more years than not. Okay. for pricing is a way to take advantage of that. understanding your storage costs, you know, are you storing it on the farm or in town? There's a different cost with that and so in order to take advantage of that, you know, we see producers taking advantage of different, products and opportunities if they don't get a marketing work for someone that does a good job of providing marketing or brokerage advice. and then there's the risk management side. And so through the risk management side, you can look at different coverages to that, maybe help put a higher floor under your operation. So maybe you're not. So maybe you protect more of what you have. or it also allows you to take advantage of maybe being of a forward price, even more bushels than what you may have been able to do in the past, because you can have more protected bushels, for example. So those are a couple levers to pull. The concern that I have is when I look at over the last few years, producers have been able to put a floor, you know, through their crop insurance plan that would kind of cover their cost of production. And so that provided you some flexibility on maybe how long do I hold my grain, how do I market it, etc.. And it just takes a lot of risk off the table preserves your working capital. But when I look at the average plan and we cover several states, when I look at several counties across, our footprint, and if I look at the most common policy that's been purchased this past year in each of those counties, if you do that for 2025, you're not going to be able to cover your cost of production. And so that's a problem. And so now you've got more risk. And so worst case scenario you get into where you do have a loss situation. Now you're dipping into working capital. And and that's creating other challenges. And so the good thing is believe it or not, you know, we compare this a lot to what happened in, you know, 2011 through 14. We had the run up and then, you know, the correction, and it looks a lot like today, you know, in terms of the markets, but, but believe it or not, the government actually is, is providing some assistance through the risk management program. So there's in the last ten years, been 300 new plans and products introduced by Ami to help producers. And and so there's some key tools, area plans you may have heard of, but things like supplemental coverage option, the enhanced coverage option, margin protection, those are all area plans which provide a higher level of protection on top of your existing multi Pro policy to help you have a higher safety net. Okay. Take advantage of some other opportunities. Those did not exist back in 2011 1213. And so those are new tools since then to help producers, let's say, manage this margin a little bit better than if we didn't have those tools.

[Yeager] How did those new programs then since 2011 come about?

[Jesina] Yeah.

[Yeager] Was that a lobby effort by an industry, or was that farmers telling the government, we need X, Y and Z?

[Jesina] Yeah, Paul, it's all of that. The reason they came into existence wasn't because the government was just looking for more things to do. It's the industry. And the producers recognize that these are gaps. And we can't rely on ad hoc disaster programs. they're not reliable. They're not consistent. They take forever. And so producers wanted better tools to help them.

[Jesina] And so that's where the industry and producers came together. most of these products were created through, private organizations that serviced this industry. There's a process. It's called A508H process, where the government encourages that type of development to happen and the government helps support, you know, I'd say these independent efforts, and then they work with the industry and the insurance companies to bring them to market. And so that's the good thing, is the industry and producers coming together to say, hey, we need something better. And and so these are the outcomes of that.

[Yeager] And I know it's not crop insurance is way too broad of a topic. But, I think since the last time we talked, it's I could almost ask the exact same question. Could a farm bill help in this matter? We still haven't written a new farm bill. where is that discussion point of making sure that, that communication of these are some tools that, we need to keep out there?

[Jesina] Yeah. So, you know, our organization and others in the industry, we work really hard with our members of Congress to make sure that, crop insurance, is, is really protected as part of the farm bill. That's the only safety net that we have, in the farm bill for our producers. And it's the only input cost producers have that actually guarantees revenue. So we need to make sure that that's, first and foremost, protected. And fortunately, as, as craziest things are out in DC right now in terms of partizanship, there is bipartisan support that that all members of Congress recognize the importance and value of crop insurance. And so we feel we're in a good spot. you know, we're not trying to do any harm to crop insurance. It's what else can we do to enhance that? Because there's been some ad hoc disaster programs in the last few years. Are there some things we can learn from that? Are there some additional gaps that through a farm bill, we can enhance crop insurance even more? And so those are the discussions. will we get a farm bill this year? It's looking less likely every day. So we might be looking at another extension, but at least we're in a good spot that we have good tools, at least today for producers, that if there's a farm bill gets extended, we have some options that can help shore up and manage this tight margin. And then, you know, with the hopes of the farm bill, maybe there's some opportunities to enhance that as we go forward.

[Yeager] I'm going to push you a little bit here. And if I get out of your lane, you let me know. Tony. Okay. There's a story, that the the average person would see when it says, insurance companies general are pulling out of homeownership or those types of things in California or Florida or this because of disasters and things like that. What's the status of if there is a major crop claim because of flood, drought, whatever that the insurance industry that we're talking about here is what's its footing like right now.

[Jesina] Yeah. that's a great, valid, relevant question because that is a concern, right. if you look at insurance companies, you know, most of these companies are at a minimum national most are global in nature. And so any time there's things happening outside of crop insurance, there can be a potential impact because crop insurance companies rely on reinsurance. So reinsurance is like insurance for the insurance companies. And so we pay attention to things like when there's a wildfire in California, a hurricane off the coast of Florida, because what impact is that going to have on reinsurance? And so we pay close attention to that. fortunately, the insurance companies in this space, the crop insurance companies and Army, they do a really, really good job of managing that risk that that we know going into the season that we have adequate coverage, insurance and reinsurance to serve this industry. And so we're in a good spot now. It impacts the ability of these companies in terms of their yards and maybe some changes. And, you know, they might adjust some of their product offerings where there might be higher risk or it's tougher to get good reinsurance rates. And so you might see some adjustments and things like how they manage, what products sell for, say for like hail insurance or wind insurance. But by and large the industry is well protected from a reinsurance perspective. But we need to pay attention to it.

[Yeager] yeah. And you hear these concerns of, Spencer, Iowa. Yeah. We can't get flood insurance because of this, or now we won't be able to. And that also trickles over because there might be a farmer who lives in town and it's impacting their house, and not necessarily their farm operation. So it does spill into you.

[Jesina] Yeah. Well, and and, Paul, you bring up a good point is on the property casualty side, that's really challenging right now. And so you mentioned, you know, the flooding in northwest Iowa, which is horrific. And, you know, it's unfortunate situation. And there's reinsurance and insurance to cover that. But at what cost. So now when you get, you know your next insurance bill. Those rates are a lot higher. You know, I live in Omaha and you know, our property casualty rates, our vehicle rates have gone up. And then if you look at, across the, the Midwest, our producers, for their property and casualty coverage for the farm to get some liability has gone through the roof. And in some cases, it's even harder to get, like a new policy. And so that's a concern. the costs are significantly higher, which that just adds to this whole margin compression issue that we're dealing with.

[Yeager] Yeah. You took me right back to where that's where we're going with this discussion here now is. So I'm the one sitting here going, well, what can I control? What do I need to have? At what point to someone just say, I guess I'm going to try to roll the dice and try to go without that insurance or, you know, a much different policy that doesn't cover as much. You know, that's got to be part of the equation, right?

[Jesina] Yeah, that's part of the conversation. I hope it's not part of the equation. And the reason why is, while that's a natural tendency to say, you know what, let's cut back okay. Well do we want to cut back on the safety net. Do we really want to cut back on the only thing that guarantees revenue? And so saving your way to prosperity on your risk management side long term usually has really bad outcomes. And so it's so how can we manage knowing that you know is there a way to manage it differently? Okay. And maybe I need to be creative and how I structure some of these my coverages or policies. But now would not in my mind would not be at the time to scale on your safety that I would look at. Are there other ways I can balance my expenses and could be it could be living expenses. You know, maybe we don't take that vacation this year. And that's a tough message. I get that, maybe it's I'm not updating my vehicles this year or, you know, some of the machinery and equipment. It's like I mentioned earlier, maybe it's liquidating that underperforming farm, etc..

[Yeager] Well, and I think you mentioned, you know, the iron side of this equation, I think we've already seen it with the large manufacturers. And you hear the stories of this, this dealer has said all used equipment must go. We're trying to clean the lot and, you know, but that's where producers are looking to save money there if they have to make a purchase. It's not new. It's used.

[Jesina] Yeah. Or I talked to, a producer that ran, two combines, and he said, you know what, these newer combines have a greater capacity and efficiency. I might actually take two used combines and trade them in and buy a new one. So believe it or not, it might be, I'm reducing the number. I'm still buying new, but because of the fuel efficiency, the efficiency of the, you know, the quality of the grain coming through it, I don't blow as much out the back that it actually helps pay for itself. But I'm going to go from two units to one and also save labor to boot. So you can see that more. You can see your scenarios like maybe we run stuff a little bit longer, you know, maybe we don't train as often. Or maybe I look at trading used for used. You still have to balance the repair cost side of it because sometimes repair costs could consume that budget too.

[Yeager] I'm going to go to the second name and your company credit for a minute. what's that conversation like that you're hearing, with lenders and borrowers of, again, who's having that tough discussion? Are these lenders leading some of these things where they're telling a producer some of these five things that you're talking about, talk to me about credit. Is it still I don't want to use the word flowing. Is it as easy to access that it maybe once was shortly. Yeah. Last couple of years.

[Jesina] Yeah. and it depends. How's that sound? Like an economist now. Right.

[Yeager] So you got hands, right?. Yeah. so if you look at kind of a bell shaped curve of producers, they're still producers that are in this tighter margin environment that are still, profitable even in the current environment. You know, they either have low debt exposure, they've managed their their costs accordingly. Maybe they've really maximized the revenue side. So those conversations are a lot different than ones where we're looking at a situation where the cash flow is negative. And so, so then what is that conversation like? You also have to look at the working capital. That's the first place you notice it is okay. We're starting to dip into working capital. How long can that go okay. So if we make adjustments now you know you know that might buy some more time and maybe the cycle improves. And then for some it's, you know, we're out of working capital, and that looks not good. But that conversation's much different in terms of, you know, am I still finance able, so to speak. And so fortunately, you know, we're we're coming into this downward cycle better position than ever. lenders are well-capitalized, producers have strong balance sheets, strong equity, strong working capital.

[Jesina] And so for most producers, it's we have options. But now it's time to start having that conversation. And unfortunately we've seen, you know, as we get into balance sheets now, we've seen some deterioration on the balance sheet because, you know, we had last year's crop. And then as we bring in this year's crop, you can still have the same yield, but it's if it's worth the bulk less, you just have that many less dollars to start with. The other, part of the conversation, that's where equity can disappear, is that maybe we didn't realize that price. Let's say we had on the balance sheet, you know, 550 and now we're liquidating, you know, cleaning out the barn, get ready for harvest. And we're not getting that price for it. And so we thought we had our balance sheet was worth so much, but we never sold the crop for that price. And so, so some of that equity disappeared. It just we never realized that gain. And so it can be a double whammy. And so for some producers it's a bit of a wake up call on, you know, you're working capital maybe shrunk in half because of those two factors. And so now's the time to start talking about how are we going to address that. And so the lenders are starting to have those conversations. And you know we'll see how the yield turns out. You know price is not on your side.

[Yeager] For now. But you know how quickly things change exactly. They don't usually go up as fast right. Is it the stair step up and the escalator or the elevator shaft downs? But, Tony, as we get to the end of September, what does a farmer need to think about as they're approaching insurance deadlines?

[Jesina] Yeah, I think you got to look at what's my cost to production, and that matters now more than ever. And and for, you know, several producers, maybe half the producers out there, it might be their cost of production is about the value of what they're going to be able to receive. And so what's my cost of production? First of all, what's my balance sheet. So what's my working capital. How much risk bearing ability do I have. And then I got to start looking at okay, if I don't like either one of those, outcomes, I need to start looking at what are the levers I can pull. And so right now we've got a September 30th deadline coming up for margin protection. And for some producers, that might be a great avenue to look at, because if you're worried about this price deteriorating even further, one advantage of margin protection is that you're locking in that next harvest price right now. And so, you know, it's November soybeans or December corn. And and those futures are higher than what the 24 futures are. And so you could lock in that price today and say, okay, at least I've put a floor under it and we'll see what happens from there. If it goes up, the rate if it goes down, we, you know, you have a floor. and if those aren't enough, you might have to look at other, other things I need to add, you know, do I need to look at some of these other area plans, like an ECL or a C? Oh, those are highly subsidized. need to look at those. And we have some producers looking at private products. you know, for example, we had a producer that a year ago thought this trend was going to happen, where prices were going to deteriorate and they were worried and they didn't want to wait for margin protection in the fall to lock it in. So June of 2023, they locked in their 2024. They put a floor on their crop, a 514 and said, you know what? I put a floor in. I hope it's better than that. but today, you know, that looks great, right? And so those are some of the strategies I'm not saying that happens every time like that, but those are the conversations to have is as there are different levers I can pull if I don't like where I'm at from a working capital and cost production situation is that I probably has to look at some of these other tools that are. May is put in front of us or these insurance companies, but put out what we call private products to look at, to say, I can't keep doing what I'm doing and expect to enjoy the outcomes.

[Yeager] That's the definition of insanity, right? That's true. Doing the same thing and expecting a different result. So all right, Tony, last question, which are you more bullish on Husker volleyball or Husker football this year?

[Jesina] Well, Husker volleyball is the real deal. Now, I, I, I'm an Iowa Stater and just pains me to say anything Huskers, but, they've got a great thing going, you know, and you can get a 90,000 people to come to a football stadium to watch volleyball. Yeah, that's great football.

[Yeager] And then they're.

[Jesina] Always optimistic there. That's Nebraska. but I would take the over on volleyball over football.

[Yeager] And how about if Iowa State and Nebraska were to play in football, who wins that one this year?

[Jesina] Oh Iowa State.

[Yeager] Twice on Sundays. Right?

[Jesina] Twice on Sundays. Yeah, that's all right.

[Yeager] That's the way it goes. Tony, good to see you again. Thank you very much for all the insight. Appreciate your views.

[Jesina] Yeah. Yeah. Appreciate the opportunity. Appreciate all you do for our producers as well. Keep spreading the good word. You got a great program.

[Yeager] Do you have any feedback for me. Hit me up. MarkettoMarket@Iowapbs.org. I'm Paul Yeager. New episodes each and every Tuesday in video and audio form. We'll see you next time. Bye bye.

Contact: Paul.Yeager@iowapbs.org