The (financial) talk can make us all uncomfortable on and off the farm - Dr. Megan McCoy

Iowa Soybean Association is driven to deliver for Iowa's 40,000 soybean farmers. We're proud to provide objective agronomic research, a helping hand with soil and water stewardship, and timely industry news powered by the soybean checkoff. Learn more at Iowa soybeans.com.

Hi everybody. I'm Paul Yeager. This is the MTM podcast, a production of Iowa PBS and the Market to Market TV show. We're going to get personal with finance today. We're going to talk about you, your partner, your family, your farm, your house, your kids, and how you can all try to get together on the same page. When it comes to finances, we know that family transitions. We've talked about that in agriculture before, when it's land and equipment and various things that go from one generation to another. How's that conversation work? That's a good episode, by the way, with Brain Trust and many others that we've done in the past. But today we're going to talk specifically about finances. Megan McCoy is a doctor at Kansas State, one of three schools that offer these programs where we talk about personal finance and financial therapy, personal financial planning. We're going to talk about that in depth today. Relationships, things around your kids, things to talk about with your parents while they're still around in good health, and how the family meal sometimes at the holidays is both a good place and a troublesome place to have some of those conversations. So that's what we're going to do today in the MTM podcast. New episodes come out each and every Tuesday. Subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. You can watch it as well. You can listen. We appreciate all and also appreciate those of you who've signed up for the newsletter. The Market Insider Newsletter are available each and every Monday. Sign up at MarkettoMarket.org. Get on the list. You'll know what's happening. You'll see quotes from this podcast ahead before anybody else. But now let's talk finance. 

[Yeager] I really appreciate you fitting me in, because I know being in a hotel room is kind of that awkward thing, but network news does it all the time. Megan, you're fine.

[McCoy] You're all good, I do. I love that story with the journalist, but the kid running through the background so I'm glad zoom life has made it easier to talk.

[Yeager] Yes, in the last four years, things have changed. In what we can, what we make work. What we can tolerate and, what we understand about things. But really, again, using that same four years, the financial dynamic of people has changed. People are working at home, people are working differently. They might be working three jobs. They might not be working at all. How have you seen in this new era of ours, how things have changed financially as we think about our own family situations?

[McCoy] Yeah, I think it's been such, I hate the word unprecedented, but I feel like every year I have been talking to people about this fear of what's coming next. When it comes to our finances. I think financial stress is a real thing. Families are facing that fear. The financial stress is about to hit is another really real thing.

[Yeager] Do you get the sense, though, that that was happening beforehand?

[McCoy] I don't think that financial therapy by field really developed in 2008. And so I remember feeling that stress right after that crash, and people grieving the loss of their home or worried about losing their home. And then I feel like we had a period of peace or at least knowing what to expect. And then, since 2019, I don't think there has been such a steady fear of our financial safety since then.

[Yeager] What made you get into this field?

[McCoy] So I grew up always wanting to help people, so I knew I wanted to be a family therapist to help me talk better. And find, you know, peace and less conflict. And so I was in my graduate program at the University of Georgia studying family dynamics. And the financial therapy field came about. So it was 2008. I was a young, very, very much in debt college student. Right. And I was, I saw a friend, you two therapy. And I said, oh my gosh, my clients need this and I need this too. Like, I'm free to finances. My finances are a mess. And so selfishly, financial therapy changed my life for the better. And I've spent the last decade trying to help other families feel a little bit more peace like I did.

[Yeager] Why is it that that word finances when we start talking amongst people, let alone our loved ones, create such, this immediate angst?

[McCoy] Oh, I think there is such a taboo about talking about money. So unlike other things in life where it's less easy to learn from others because we're afraid to admit we have more or less than others. So the conversation just doesn't happen. And I think within family, it's tough to realize, how can I talk about finances without my kids knowing how stressed I am about my finances? So I think the secrecy and the anxiety gets passed on through generations.

[Yeager] But right there, what you say of not letting your kids know maybe what your situation is, is that a detriment?

[McCoy] Yes. There's actually been a couple of great studies about how secrecy around finances actually negatively impacts us as adults. And so if we grow up with too much secrecy, we find that people are more anxious about money. And interestingly, with gender, once a couple studies have found that secrecy around women actually end up, leading them to make less money in general as adults. And so both the emotional and financial consequences of secrecy has been shown in the literature.

[Yeager] Because, again, we copy what our parents did and if they're secret about it, will be secret about it. If we think that their stress about it will have stress about it. Yes. And I'm get go ahead. Megan.

[McCoy] Oh, I was going to say and we start to feel like finances is something that you have to be perfect at or that other people know what they're doing, but I don't. So like, for instance, my husband had a patch of grass this year, that dye. And so he did all this research on what should I add to my grass, what supply should I buy? Like what's the best strategy around this? Right. And with finances, sometimes we don't think of problem solving. We don't after neighbor. What do I put on my grass? We instead be like, oh, everybody else knows what they're doing except for me. And we kind of give up without taking the next step. So he does have to be an expert on grass, but no one has to be an expert on finances to problem solve.

[Yeager] And you don't have to reveal everything to solve a problem.

[McCoy] Absolutely, absolutely.

[Yeager] Okay. With the kid dynamic. I want to go to that for a minute. If I'm guessing, Megan, you're going to respond this one pretty easy. This might be a softball. It's never too early to start talking about finances with our kids.

[McCoy] Yeah, it's never. And it doesn't have to be like, here's your, I don't know, retirement account. It can be things like, here's your allowance. What do you want to do with it? What are you going to do to make yourself happy. How are you going to save? Like what are your wants and needs? Those early conversations can be so beneficial. In fact, I'm coming to your neck of the woods in a couple of weeks for an Iowa game. And at Iowa, they do the thing with The Wave at the children's hospital. So we're taking the kids to the game. And so for allowance and for chores around the house, we've been like, how much do you want to save to take care of the kids, to give back to the kids. And so when we do the wave that we'll be waving to kids that they personally were able to support in one way.

[Yeager] And that is a whole nother level of wanting to help people and building good humans right there. So that's awesome. But how did you, I'm not saying convince, but how do you convince someone who is seven or 8 or 910 that your money might not necessarily be for you, but it can help others, or it can do and and build some of that.

[McCoy] Yeah. I think it's very much modeling in both what I say and what I do. So sharing when I'm doing some kind of charity for like savings for somebody else, when I'm treating friends and family with gifts or a meal to explain the reasoning behind it and how I'm doing it. I think doing and saying is key in this.

[Yeager] The actions speak louder than words in this is what you're saying.

[McCoy] Yes. And so, something comes up when we have a disconnect, right? Like I say, I really want to support charities. I say that all the time, and then they don't get to see me going to buy kids toys and toys for tots, you know, something like that, that there's a disconnect. And in finance, as it becomes even more like money's not important, but I'm stressing about money all the time. Money is, money is scary. But you shouldn't worry about money. Those like, kind of mixed, kind of disconnected messages are hard for kids to process.

[Yeager] All right, let's elevate it a couple of years. You need to get a job, kid. I'm sick of sitting around the house. Where's that transition coming? 

[McCoy] Oh, it's so hard. I think that, I like to, I don't think the amassing of money is healthy for us. I think that having goals that we're working towards is healthy. And so with getting a job, it is about what do you want to get? You want a car? Do you want to go to the movies? Like what are the goals you have that you can share with others that getting a job will then allow you to do that?

[Yeager] Then you're stuck on the treadmill of life.

[McCoy] Yeah.

[Yeager] That's the way that goes. All right, so, Megan, what about your base at Kansas State? Iowa, we're in the middle of a farm country. Our financial discussions are all different, amongst our people, because we have some that come from a farm, some that might have land in the family, some that might want to get into farming. These are some major expenses that someone might have and trying to get into a job. Is there any difference between a rural family and an urban family having these discussions?

[McCoy] I think absolutely, I think it I once heard that Kansas City has one of the most per capita of financial planners, and you would think New York or LA or something like that, but it's Kansas City because farm families have so much succession planning and so much, liquidity and non liquid assets. They're trying to, pass down through generations. And so finances becomes key. And plus you add on top of that how much upward cost that you have to do to run a farm. It is a financial stress. And then how much the forces of, of external factors like the weather and the government and so on will impact your ability, really does make a unique situation. Then farm families may be more likely to experience financial stress. And I think also because farm families have such an emotional connection to their land, the finances, the job decisions all kind of get blurred between the financial decision and the emotional decision. So I think that financial health becomes even more key for our families.

[Yeager] What does good planning look like in that scenario that you're laying out?

[McCoy] Yeah, I think it becomes key to have someone, whether it's a professional to talk to or other, farm families that you have, met throughout your life, who can give you that support? Oh, say, do I have everything I can control in place? Do I have the right insurance? Do I have the right safeguards? Do I have the right savings in place? So if those external factors don't go my way, I'm not going to get lost on.

[Yeager] But I want to, I mean, in the family side of things when you're talking generational wealth or something like that, it doesn't necessarily have to be land, but how important is it that one generation, reveals to another one? Or maybe it's not important that they reveal to the next one what they are wanting to have done with, with wealth in that transfer.

[McCoy] No, I think it's so key. So I only see a small handful of clients now because I do so much, research and teaching. But the last four cases I've worked with has been actually families fighting over in-state settlement. So the brothers and sisters fighting about like, what I'm getting and how it's distributed and what's fair and what's liquid and what's not liquid, and all those conversations. And when we're grieving the loss of a loved one, anger is such a natural, empowering, like emotion that we naturally feel, so it can cause the conflict to get even more blown up. So the more we can have conversations when we are healthy and young about family, succession planning and other dynamics about after we lose that person when we're happy and healthy, that it becomes easier to have those real hard conversations as we near the end. So this is so wild. But just this week I met with the woman who was a debt doula. So I don't know if you ever heard of like a doula in the hospital, but it's someone helps you through the previous experience. A don't do helps with the end of life conversations to give you peace to increase communication between family members. And I was blown away by the idea of having someone facilitate those conversations that are so difficult to have with their loved ones. And I just hope that people can start having those conversations more. And there are people like that do is out there.

[Yeager] Is there a good time? You said healthy and you know, we're happy. But yeah, those at are those supposed to be at family gatherings at Thanksgiving or are they supposed to be in the middle of June?

[McCoy] You know, I, I hope that it's not always around the holidays, but I think thinking about again, what do I want for you guys after I'm gone is a beautiful conversation that you can you don't have to focus on the death, but your wishes for your loved ones can be something that at Thanksgiving is actually kind of fitting to say, I'm so thankful for you, and I hope when I'm gone that you guys still have the bonds between you, that you don't experience, stress, that you can continue our legacy of this, you know, homestead or whatever your wishes are.

[Yeager] Okay? And think about what you've just said. But I wanted to have you think about that transition side from someone who maybe doesn't want to have that conversation. The younger generation is wanting the older generation to lay out some framework, and you're getting resistance from those that have to those that might have someday.

[McCoy] It is so difficult. And I think one of the first steps is for the matriarch or the patriarch of the family, the person, the older generation to come to terms with themselves, what they're giving, making sure that in their mind that they don't have anxiety about the distributions so that when they have this conversation, it is not, them processing out loud some of their anxieties. And so if you are lucky enough to be partnered with a wonderful wife or husband, having those conversations together before bringing in the younger generations can be a way to make sure that you process your own emotions before bringing it to the family.

[Yeager] But it's tough. And because then, you know, you throw in a spouse who might not, gel with the family or think, there's these, you know, these, these soap opera models of, well, they're just here because of X or Y. Help me navigate some of those tricky spots where your intentions are supposed to be and are above board and in a healthy manner.

[McCoy] Yeah, and I love the idea of intentions. I think that there's an interesting bias that we sometimes have where when we do something, we recognize the context of what we're doing, right? Like, if I'm cranky, I recognize that maybe I need a Snickers, or maybe I'm tired. Or maybe these other stressors happen when someone else does something. We tend to jump to an assumption that they're doing it because their personality like, if my partner snaps, it's not because they're hungry or tired or whatever. It's because they're being a jerk. Right? And so I think if we can switch that and say, let me just give the gift to everyone else that I believe their intentions are good, that I won't make the assumption that it's them, but rather the context. I think giving that gift to others makes those conversations a little bit easier than jumping to oh, this person always says that because they're so, so right.

[Yeager] Do you get the sense that those tensions or pressures elevate at the higher dollar amount? When we're talking? Is that accurate?

[McCoy] I think so, I think, I think when it becomes bigger numbers, I think that it becomes more emotionally laden. Like we were joking earlier about my kiddos being seven and ten. And so it's a lot easier for me to have a conversation about their $4 allowance than me saying, here's how much I make a year. You know, like, I think the bigger the number is, we project deeper into it. And it's fascinating. So there's some research that actually shows that the more finances you amass, the more scared you are of losing it. It's yeah, it's interesting.

[Yeager] Therefore causing us to work more or put more away or work longer because it might not be enough.

[McCoy] Yeah. And I think that's why we said earlier about like, I don't like the idea of working towards a number. It should be then working towards a goal because no number is actually going to make you happy.

[Yeager] All right. Again, I'm going to go back to the commodity side of things because those are, you know, when you're talking millions of dollars in land or equipment and you've got people that will just take a family of four, one involved in the farm, three not involved. You've got voting power off the farm, not on the farm. Then, again, is that similar to any other dynamic that you've encountered in your career?

[McCoy] Oh, yeah. So let's take it even further, too. You have one child who's going to take over the farm that on paper is worth so much money, and the other 3rd May be getting some kind of asset like cash or the house or some, I don't know, some kind of distribution. On paper, those numbers will look so different to those children. But the running of the farm is expensive. So even on paper you're getting a farm valued at 500,000 and the other person is only getting 10,000 in cash. They're like, that's so unfair. Not thinking about all the contributing factors of keeping the farm in motion, you know? And so I think that's where conflict can happen between sibling pairs of when you have a gift, a liquid asset like a farm. The comparison is not apples to apples. And without conversations behind those decisions, assumptions can be made about jealousy or favoritism or a host of other factors.

[Yeager] Well, yeah, because you can be sitting in those rooms and you've probably sat in those rooms where someone says, I'm only getting ten grand and you're getting this. Yes.

[McCoy] And then the conversation about how do you split a farm fairly, or one person who wants to sell it becomes so much more conflictual, especially during the grieving process. So if those conversations had occurred earlier on, here is my reasoning behind these decisions. Here's why I'm getting this person this because I love you guys all. It is so much easier to navigate than after you're gone. And again, that mind reading that happens. That's because mom loved you more, or mom loved me less. You know?

[Yeager] Well, yeah, you love your seven year old more than your ten year old, I'm sure. Just like, you know, everybody loves the younger one, right? Isn't that how that goes? Maybe there's some.

[McCoy] Complex.

[Yeager] But, I mean, it happens. And because money's involved, we get tense about it and we get awkward about it, and we just look down, kick a can down the road, and maybe we'll talk about it another day. And you never do until it's. Mom is now gone, and we can't ask her what her intentions are. And that horse is out in the pasture. Now, let me use a couple more metaphors, too.

[McCoy] But it's so true. And I just I think there is such, a gift to be able to leave your family without that tension, without the questions, without the concerns that come from trying to keep it secret or avoiding it, and kicking that can down the road.

[Yeager] Okay, so we've talked a lot about the family planning of side of things, the financial let's, let's I guess in the literacy of things, anything I know I'm, I'm getting right here on the fringe of, of your expertise, but, a young farm family, let's just talk about. No, we've gotten the transition. It's done, they're started. But there's tension of, I didn't sell my corn at this price. It's now down here, and one spouse is upset at the other one. That's a similar dynamic that can happen in any location, but help me navigate some of those situations.

[McCoy] You know, one thing that I think about a lot with couples is that, you know, they say opposites attract, but there's honestly not what the research shows. People tend to marry someone very much like them in their worldviews and their religion, in their faith. And, and so much more. We marry someone like us in the big things. Except for when it comes to money we tend to get attracted to are kind of opposite in terms of finances. So the saver is attracted to that spender who is like so fun and it's able to live like Fuller and the same. The spender is attached to the saver, be so mature and responsible, and so we tend to get attracted to the opposite and then push each other apart. And so maybe I notice my spending more. So I start to save more, save for and then. But you start out this right and you end up this different over time. The same thing for risk. Like maybe you marry someone with a little bit lower risk tolerance. And so they're trying to sell that commodity right away before you lose money, even though you, as more of a risk taker, may want to wait longer. And over time, again, you kind of push each other to say, why are you always taking too much risk? Why are you always not picking enough risk? And it's easy to get into a pattern or dance between you guys. And so appreciating and finding balance is the goal.

[Yeager] And then you might be having these conversations in front of those kids who are then having to navigate. That isn’t easy either.

[McCoy] Oh, but I'm so glad you said this because do you remember there was a period of time where I feel like every talk show was like, don't fight in front of your kids, right? And so they actually did research on families that said, we'll never fight in front of our kids. And they interviewed these adult children who had never saw their parents fight and said, how was it right? What was your experiences? And what they found is that they were actually more stressed and scared and less able to have conflict, because if you never fight in front of your kids, you're also never showing conflict resolution skills. You're never showing healthy dialog to your partner. You're not modeling like, again, that conflict resolution. And so I think horrible cursing around your kids is terrible. But having having dialog and compromise in front of your kids is actually really healthy.

[Yeager] That's going to be the name of the episode - “horrible cursing.” I think that's that should really get the clicks. Megan. But it is, it is tough. And I think of growing up in, it's like you've gone and looked at my past or something, but, I mean, I'm a child of the farm in the 80s, and it was tough and tensions were high. And, you know, dad's trying to navigate this and mom's trying to do this. It was hard to see that. And I know that there are families. You mentioned 2008, the Great Recession. We go through the Covid era, where again, my job disappears or, my job changed. I'm now at home and now we're together all the time and not traveling. I mean, things evolve in our lives, in my life for sure. I mean, that is the way things have gone. Is there anything that is a common theme through all of those eras?

[McCoy] Yes. I think that the experience, the human experience of the periods of downtime, the periods of financial stress is something that has been escalated or magnified through those big moments of the recession and Covid and things like that. But there are human experiences, human, like, which I call universal experiences. And the one thing I am glad to see shift is that growing up, I remember, I telling my parents that I wanted to do family therapy, and they're like, I would never want to be therapists. They're like, always looking for problems or like, they're, you know, you just didn't do that in the 2000 or 90s or 80s. You didn't go see help. And I think there's been an evolution where people realized that therapists and financial therapists aren't just making you lay on the couch and talk about your mom, but rather getting real skills in communicating, listening, empathizing, conflict resolution like real skills that can help you take care that highs and lows, the bounties and the stressor periods in a way that is more fruitful.

[Yeager] You teach graduate level, undergraduate PhD type classes. I know Kansas State has all sorts of things that are available right now, but let's look at the elementaries and the high schools of the world. There was this thing I saw online a couple of weeks ago of, let's stop teaching calc two and let's do a financial literacy course. Yes, dad. Do you like that idea?

[McCoy] Oh, I love it. And I'm really excited. Kansas actually just has a rule that every student, I think by 2027 has to have a financial literacy course before graduating high school. And I'm so in love with this because, again, it is not the goal to be able to make a ton of money and save all this money and swim like Scrooge McDuck in your coin, but rather reducing stress that you can worry about the real problems in life and not money. And so I love the idea of teaching our middle schoolers and high schools how to have a budget, how to differentiate our needs versus our ones, how to buy a car or take out a loan for your farm. Like those core skills that we need to adult in life are so important to teach me and for young people.

[Yeager] Understanding that the interest that you have on your house or a car loan might be really low. Maybe you don't pay that one off and you take that percentage, spend it somewhere else as an investment. I mean, those I mean, maybe that's a 201 course, not a one on one course.

[McCoy] I think it can be conversations though, because in that 101 course, the first class, it can be the time value of money, like how interest works, how interest works for us or against us. And then you can get into the specifics in the two hundreds or, you know, honestly, Google it or chat about it and not be the expert, but know enough to be able to ask the right questions.

[Yeager] When we're recording this, the Federal Reserve just announced they were going to do an interest rate cut. There's plenty of people who will see that on the news and not understand other than like the two parts of, oh, your car loan might be lower and you might not get as much interest from your bank, are two things. After that, they don't understand what that means. Is it important to be able to have, what a lower or higher interest rate by the Federal Reserve means for us?

[McCoy] I mean, it's great if you do, because it can make you make decisions again about where you're putting your money and how you're moving things around and making it work the best for you. But I think that, again, I think it's really healthy to have someone to talk to, whether that is a financial planner who is navigating can just call up. And when I heard this news, what is this need? Or a financial therapist who can help you understand the emotional consequences of the tax cut or things like that? I think having someone to talk to can really be advantageous.

[Yeager] Are there motivations that we have to worry about with someone when we have that conversation, because there's, we always have this, resistance if, oh, they're just trying to sell me something or they're trying to get me into this product and it's not for my better good. It's for their better good. Because if I sign up for this policy, they win. I lose.

[McCoy] Yes, I think vetting any professional is so key. And so what things that I'll help you find the right professional from you, for you is noticing it. They have their designations. So the financial planning designation is called a CFP and they require all CFP to act in the best interests of their clients, not themselves. And they will get their marks removed if they are doing things just to make a buck. So I think that's one way of vetting. And I think talking around and finding out who are the people who are selling products as a financial advisor, who are the financial advisors that, again, are making sure your financial plan is in place and that you are using, your accounts at the most beneficial way for your family?

[Yeager] Let's look at I mean, you're from Georgia, you live in Kansas, you've been around the country a little bit. Is there any difference in regions, the way people view money and having conversations about them?

 

[McCoy] Oh, absolutely. I think that it's invaluable to think about the culture. You grow up with money, especially as you send kids off to college and they're going somewhere culturally different. I think that's, again, why understanding your own values and be able to talk about in the family so they can create their own values to and so that they're not motivated for outside, you know, reasons is so healthy for families. And it's so fun because, like you mentioned at Kansas State, I teach those courses on financial therapy. And we have so many people sign up for the courses who don't want to be financial planners, but want to be able to have conversations with their kids about money, or they want to understand how they grew up without money and how that impacts their financial stress levels or their worries around money. And so I think that the more you can engage in conversations around this, the better off everybody is.

[Yeager] And again, age is not shouldn't be. Something is a hurdle. It should be at any age that we have this conversation.

[McCoy] Oh yes. It's never too late. And I do this fun exercise with my undergrads, especially called it, Jane or Graham, where we do a family tree around, relationships and money and how they impact it. And it's so fun to hear about them calling their parents up and be like, mom, tell me about grandma and how she taught you about money. What was it like? Oh, did you guys ever have conversations or did you ever not have conversations? And what was that experience like? It's so fun to hear them engaging with their parents like that.

[Yeager] Now, dating apps came after I was dating, but what if the dating apps had a financial literacy match? I mean, is, I mean, what if they could we call should we call some of those up and suggest that for them, or would that be rather bad?

[McCoy] I you know, it's so funny because like we said, that, most people do get attracted their opposite. But some of the research shows that the if you are a spender, you are going to be more emotionally happy with another spender, but more financially healthy, happy with a saver. So I don't know, I think you got to pick your gambits that I rather that everybody just found balance rather than going to the extremes.

[Yeager] But how do I have my balance if I'm in that relationship that you're talking about? I'm the spender. She's the saver. Hey, I think that that $6 there could have been used differently.

[McCoy] Right? And I think so I think that a lot of people think money conversations always have to go down to like budget conversations. And that's not how I like to have my many conversations. I have many dates with my husband, and we actually get one lotto ticket and we're like, okay, let's go out to dinner. And if we win the million dollar or whatever, what would be different about our life? What we would be spending more time doing? What would we pursue? What would we offload and not do as much? You know, and like have these conversations again about what do we value about money? Because when I see you spend $6 on, I don't know, some overpriced coffee, right? I immediately make those assumptions of like, you're being selfish, you're not thinking my family goal is blah blah blah. But if we have that conversation over how if I want $1 million, we get an espresso machine and we have the most beautiful coffee. Because the highlight of my week is when I get a fancy coffee, all of a sudden that $6 purchase is like a gift to you. And I'm like, I'm so happy you treated yourself rather than I can't believe you stole from me.

[Yeager] And they're we're on. We're back on to a treadmill of a conversation that is never healthy.

[McCoy] Yeah, absolutely.

[Yeager] Do you have, when you mentioned the undergrads, anything in the graduate level, in the PhD level classes that are of interest that you have?

[McCoy] Yeah, we have a financial therapy certificate, and it's designed for working professionals. So they tend to be in a full time job. And we meet at nighttime and talk about things like money, relationships or the tricks our mind does. We call them like behavioral biases about like how scary it is to lose money and how we don't have as much joy when we make money and all these other tricks our brain plays on us around finances as well as like navigating how, we do get anxious, what makes us anxious about our finances and so on. So those financial therapy certificate classes are so valuable for people who want to be in the financial field, or people who want to have better conversations or feelings around money.

[Yeager] And you're not there's not many other programs in the U.S like this, is there?

[McCoy] Nope. It started at Kansas State University of Georgia, where I did my training. Actually has, financial therapy and Texas Tech, but it really is the three of us who have focused on this behavioral or emotional aspects of money.

[Yeager] Do you anticipate that will widen?

[McCoy] Yes. So as I mentioned earlier, the CFP is the destination for financial planners. And they actually, added what they call client psychology competency to CFP marks, meaning that financial planners getting trained are now required to understand the psychological aspects of money. And so the field of financial planning has shifted from focusing on investment returns to really understanding what clients value, what clients want, and helping them gear a plan to that rather than just making a lot of return on investment.

[Yeager] Never a dull moment with you. I mean, there's lots of stuff going on and, there's lots of ways we can all be better, be better consumers, be better communicators with our whoever a brother, sister, and or spouse as well. Megan, I appreciate your time. Thank you so very much.

[McCoy] It's so fun talking to you. Have a great day.

[Yeager] My thanks to Megan McCoy for her time, and thank you for watching, listening or reading. We are back next Tuesday with another new episode. Go back into the archives, check out something you think might be interesting as well. And what I really would like is if you share with a friend and even a review would be cool. We'll see you next time. Bye bye.

Contact: Paul.Yeager@IowaPBS.org