Sustainable aviation fuel takes off - Warren Brower

Paul Yeager   Hi there, welcome in to the MtoM studio here at Iowa PBS. This is part of the Market to Market TV show. I'm Paul Yeager. Glad to have you here. Each Tuesday, new episodes of the MToM are released, you can watch them. Or you can listen. Either way. We don't care just as long as you consume. And what we really would like is if you would share, tell a friend, hey, I listen to this one podcast. Yeah, it might not be jokes at every turn, or scary or mystery solving a cold case. But what we are covering are issues around agriculture. And this week is no different. Especially when we get into energy. We're going to talk about sustainable aviation fuel. Wait a minute, how does that relate to rural America? We're going to find out we're going to go and talk with Warren Brower of Haffner Energy. He's going to discuss with us the topics of renewable and biomass and fuel what's driving the industry? What three industries have the greatest future of using fuel and how they're going to be powered moving forward? That was a discussion I did not expect in this. And I think there's some other things that you might like as well, and this installment of the MtoM show. I have to admit, Warren for someone who is in France, you sound a lot like an American.

Warren Brower   Yeah, I do. That's because I was born and raised in America. So yeah, I've only been here for a few months. Please. Yeah, please don't make me speak French.

Paul Yeager   Well, I guess that's, you know, I do with the French do do what isn't that this phrase? I think

Warren Brower   something like that. Or when in Rome, whatever.

Paul Yeager   There you go, Oh, I just insulted the French right off the bat. Warren, you grew up in the United States in New York. Is that where?

Warren Brower   I did. I grew up actually in a rural area in upstate New York, near Binghamton, Binghamton, New York area. So very familiar with some of the agriculture and, you know, rural situations that are facing smaller communities in upstate.

Paul Yeager   You have now, I mean, is it a science background, a business development background? Well, how to visit where you're at?

Warren Brower   Yeah, it's a business development development background. So I've spent the better part of the last two decades actually helping to commercialize emerging and disruptive technologies throughout the globe in hydrogen and fuel cell markets. And this was a nice fit, to come to work for Haffner Energy. So I'm currently their executive vice president of business development, and I'm tasked with commercializing their solutions,

Paul Yeager   the last 20 years have been quite a sea change. In just the industry. In general, when you say disruptive technology, that's kind of what we've done. Since we flipped over to put a two in front of our year, do you feel that it's been massive amounts of change?

Warren Brower   Yeah, I think that there has been, when I first started out in talking to people about things like hydrogen, or fuel cell or methanol, these type of things were very foreign to people. And, you know, more than once, I'd have been laughed out of a room. But today, we're, you know, we're talking about, you know, accurate access to hydrogen, utilizing, you know, biofuels, putting things in places we'll talk about here and say aviation, where they're trying to reduce reduce their carbon footprint, and they're looking at all these solutions, and it's much more commonplace, certain, you know, shows and conferences that used to have 500 people now have 5,015. It is, you know, it's it's a different world, and we lived in 20 years ago, and yeah, a lot of disruption, especially in the energy sectors, and it's very exciting.

Paul Yeager   What's prompted that disruption? 

Warren Brower   I think that, you know, people and specifically corporations have finally realized that they can conduct business in a very good way and have a positive impact on the environment. And I think people will just realize that we do have some issues that we need to we need to look at, and we need to find some solutions, the you know, the earth, you know, people population keeps, keeps growing, transportation keeps growing, the need for food and the transport of food, those types of things. We're looking at saying, okay, there, there can be some solutions out there that bring about some change, as well as, you know, have some positive environmental impacts.

Paul Yeager   I guess I the part of the reason I asked her background, gives me a perspective, I think it gives us a perspective Do you feel from your work, that there's more of an appetite for what you've been talking about globally, or in the United States?

Warren Brower   No, there's definitely an appetite globally. And you know, we're you know, Luckily, I've been in situations where I've been working with people in other parts of the world here. And in Europe, obviously parts of Asia, that are embracing emerging technologies, you know, the sector that we're talking about today on, you know, sustainable aviation, and sustainable aviation fuels, we think that there's a couple of key regions that will embrace early and lead the way obviously the US, followed by Europe. And there's a couple of main factors for that. And then, you know, obviously, in aviation, you know, the US leads the way in, in, you know, airlines for the top five airlines are us, it leads the way in air travel. So the consumption rates are extremely high. And, you know, in our world, access to things like biomass, to be able to utilize these things to create sustainable aviation fuel is a big benefit. Also, we're seeing in places like the US incentives, or the, you know, the IRA, the inflation Reduction Act, or some other incentives out there that are helping to drive at least interest and action that can be capitalized on and make this a little bit easier, I'd say from they're following the US, and not necessarily falling, but working in parallel would be the EU would be Europe. And mainly, that's due to the same reason they have some legislation that are being put in place where airlines have to look at what this means to them long term. How do they go about being good corporate citizens, they have access to things like biomass and SAF. So again, embracing a new look at their energy and how they go about it is in line with their thought processes and their missions as companies. So other parts of the world will will embrace and get there. But I think these two regions will lead the way. Is it

Paul Yeager   the consumer who's flying on an airline that wants their airline that they're doing business with to have a sustainable source of fuel? Or is it shareholders? The country as a whole? I mean, because to me, from from the United States standpoint, it seems that it's more of the people of these countries that you're mentioning in Europe, and not necessarily the customers asking of that of the company.

Warren Brower   Yeah, I think it's a little bit of everything we have had conversations around, the consumer is looking for how they themselves travel, and their impact on, you know, environmental concerns as they travel. So I think that plays into it. And of course, companies will have to hear their, their consumer and make sure that they're providing options for their consumer. But secondarily, as you said, I think that, you know, we're in place now, in these regions where the average person, the average consumer is looking at the companies that they invest in, or the companies that they choose and say we want them to be responsible, you know, corporations, I think that that leads that kind of leads into some legislation, which again, leads us in the way of incentive, and just broadens the overall horizon as to how these companies can then do so. And do do it effectively and efficiently, and embrace things like sustainable aviation fuel. So I think it's a little bit of both.

Paul Yeager   Well, let's get a little background on your company have mentioned it a little bit what, what what attracted them to you, or you to them? I guess I get the question right there.

Warren Brower   You know, over the last 20 years, I've worked with companies that were either in some sort of startup or transition mode, and they were focused on environmental concerns and actually having a cultural background of making a difference and committing to these types of solutions. And Haffner Energy is a family owned company that in 20, it's operated by and run by two brothers that founded it, Mark and Philip Haffner. And their commitment over the last few years has been in this direction and really appealed to me so 2020 to half your energy had its first IPO. Now sounds as if it's a bit of a startup, but the reality is, is they've been in biomass to energy for nearly 30 years, and in the last few years have refocused their patent portfolio in the utilization of biomass to hydrogen and biomass to sin gas, which is a direct replacement for natural gas and had their IPO in 2022. And started to build the company focused on that. I was I liked what the company was doing and when I had the opportunity to meet with them, I immediately wanted to be a part of it because they're although they're currently are was a French company, their their vision and focus is on expanding into regions where their their solution not only makes financial sense but also brings about some some environmental issues. had,

Paul Yeager   Biomass can mean many things. And I think I heard a little bit of a different a couple of different definitions in what you were saying there. What's the current definition you have of biomass?

Warren Brower   So biomass from from our perspective is any residual type of type of substance was, you know, we utilize things like wood chips, straw, manure. So biomass is anything that basically contains two key elements that are utilized in the creation of sustainable aviation fuel and hydrogen. So found within biomass is biogenic or renewable carbon, that can be utilized as well as hydrogen that's found within within these substances. So So biomass has a big range, and it's hard to list all of them. But yeah, it can be anything from from straw to wood to to manure, and can be utilized in this process.

Paul Yeager   Well, there was a company not too far from where we record our program that tried the biomass using the what was leftover of the stover of the corn plant that was seen, but that that plant struggled, and there were a lot of factors included in that. Are there certain masses that you're finding are, I guess, more sustainable and cost effective?

Warren Brower   Well, again, the benefit and the real differentiator for Haffner Energy in our solutions revolves around the fact that we can utilize any and all of these types of biomasses. Now, what does that mean to you know, to the average consumer or to someone that we'd be working with? What that means is, doesn't your your region is done is it dependent on having to bring in specific biomass, so no matter what region you're in, and moreover, what time of year it is, you may have access to this type of biomass in the in the autumn, but not that in spring, similar to the way people eat, right. So we have different things that present themselves. Now our technology, we have what's called a patented approach called thermolysis utilizes high levels of heat to extract the gases and the carbon from within these bio masses, we can utilize anything that for these processes. Now, a couple additional steps may be needed if it's wet waste, but any biomass or waste can be utilized in our process to be able to deliver on sustainable aviation fuel.

Paul Yeager   You mentioned all these different types of, I guess, sources. To me, it sounds like a nightmare for a production facility, trying to do the conversion, I guess I'm not following how that really works and how, because just one facility taking the same type of product before it produces? No, the

Warren Brower   facility in question would utilize the available biomass at that time.

Paul Yeager   Okay, so it can, it can rotate? It's like, that's where I struggle on the whole? Well, gosh, you know, because you remember, during the early parts of 2020, it was, well, no, that plant can't quickly turn and make this product because all the machines have to be calibrated. So how do you quickly calibrate it and evolve depending on what's available at any given time or time of year?

Warren Brower   Yeah, there'll be a specification as as far as size and how it's delivered. Again, we look at things like the humidity found within the biomass, but again, if additional steps are required to dry the biomass to be able to utilize it, then that can be put into the plant. But you know, through our process, we should we are able to receive biomass long as it meets the specification required size and in be able to utilize that in our process. So that simplifies things. And it also, you know, has a direct impact on the cost structure of all of this. So again, if you're in a specific region, you have access to a certain type of agricultural waste, that can be utilized. Great, and that gets you that gets used. If it's a waste product from a different, you know, a different manufacturing technique, then that can also be utilized, generally speaking, that's what helps drive cost, the accessibility this the differentiators that we're looking at. So these solutions now are presenting themselves through our Haffner energy solutions. And it can be utilized globally. And that's why we're having this conversation with you today. And it's why recently we put out some press around our participation in the in SAF markets, because of the fact that in the US, the Department of Energy has stated that there's you know, in their white paper this stated that there's more than a billion tonnes of usable dry biomass in the United States alone each year. Now that equates to millions of gallons of sustainable aviation fuel that can be utilized to stabilize and reduce emissions. And in, in this type of travel. So this is why again, we put out our statement that we're participating in this in this market, where, you know, looking and speaking with potential partners, and how we can bring these solutions to these regions.

Paul Yeager   You know, in the United States and foreign country, there's always this discussion about ethanol and the sourcing of the grain for making that product. Ethanol goes into different directions. It's not really used in the in the aviation industry as it is in the automobile industry. So ethanol corn, folks, they'd like to see it expanded, just like aviation would like to see it expanded. Can these two worlds? How do they live together?

Warren Brower   Yeah, I think there's room for everything. I mean, there's so much going on in transportation globally, right. So the volumes that we're talking about are massive. Millions and millions of gallons of sustainable aviation fuel for just air, you know, aircraft alone. I believe there's plenty of room in other transportation methods that, you know, ethanol can expand into. This is but an arrow in the quiver, right. So there is there is a need for multiple solutions to these to these issues and these opportunities. And we believe we have a solution that is perfect for the aviation community and navy in use within aviation, because of the fact that once you look at this process and our process, through through thermolysis, as I mentioned, we create a hydrogen rich sin gas now that sin gas can then be turned into multiple things, whether it's hydrogen, it can be turned into sustainable aviation fuel, even methanol. But that that aviation fuel, what's really interesting about that, in today's world versus, you know, in other emerging technologies, is a drop in replacement for what's being used today. So basically, jet fuel of today is a is kerosene, for lack of a better term, it's it's kerosene, and kerosene is made up of, and we'll get a little technical, kerosene is made up of two thirds hydrogen and 1/3. Carbon. So a bio kerosene to replace that needs to have the same have the same structure. And that's exactly what we're talking about here. And you can create a bio kerosene, through this process, utilizing Haffner technology, of course, and have a drop in replacement that reduces greenhouse gas emissions by 80 to 90%, immediately, without changing the the infrastructure dispensing, storage, transport, or even the aircraft itself. I can't speak to the challenges of ethanol and other and other markets, because my focus obviously is here. But yes, I believe there's going to be a need for multiple solutions to these things if we want to move from, from fossil based carbon fuels to, to to renewables.

Paul Yeager   Well, you know, how it translates here, it's always big oil is the is the evil empire in the fuel business, who's the opponent? That's making the current? Are they considered an opponent? Or is it a digit or these companies who you're shaking your head? Like, I must have this backwards, then?

Warren Brower   No, I've never seen it that way. Again, I think that you know, all of this, this isn't, this is a way to look at next steps. You know, we need transport oil, big oil companies have supplied what they've you know, their product, to ensure transfer takes place, we can get on a plane, we can fly from conference guy, we can take big trucks, we can deliver people's medicine. So they're not, they're not evil, and they're not the enemy. They're they're a logical step in the solution, because of the fact that they have large scale infrastructure, they have great reach, they have distribution, they have those things now, can we convince them to look at alternatives to taking, you know, fossil based carbon and utilizing renewable based carbon, can we create this, these these markets to a place where it creates a need for these companies to participate? So I see them playing a very key role in the future. You know, and we have the solutions that we can help take and create this transition, but then others need to participate. The scale is just too large for any one company or any one solution to take on alone. So no, I don't see them as evil. I don't see them as competition I see them as you know, is entities that will eventually participate.

Paul Yeager   Because if you look at the fuel providers for for the aviation industry 10 years ago, are those same players was working on technology that that you're talking about that after might have,

Warren Brower   I can't say specifically, but I would imagine. So I mean, they would obviously be entities that we would love to have conversations with. And I can only say so much as to who we're having conversations with. But again, those entities who are currently supplying aviation fuel should be looking hard at how they can supply sustainable aviation fuel. So they can either increase the amount of solution to their to their customers or not yield market share to someone else. You know, we look at this and say, we have a technology that is a key brick in the overall ecosystem to deliver the solutions to airlines, the airlines are going to do this, they've said they're going to do it, they said, they're going to reduce and utilize SAF by X amount by two by 2030, and be net zero by 2050. They said it, I didn't say it, they said it. They're putting plans into place. And they're getting in line with offtake agreements to ensure that they have access to this fuel, because they've made these statements of their shareholders and to their stakeholders, they've made commitments to their industry and to the governments. So if there are people, there are entities that are currently providing fuel to them, I would hope that they would look at okay, how do we continue to utilize this infrastructure that we've put in place these relationships that we have, and find ways to satisfy the airline's need, instead of trying to simply compete with the inevitable rise of these type of technologies?

Paul Yeager   efficiencies are always talked about by airlines of well, we're not going to put paint on the plane because that saves us X amount of pounds of weight. What is the efficiencies that this type of fuel that you're providing help in the? I mean, you know, it's like, I now get 30 miles to the gallon. I mean, how do you measure it there?

Warren Brower   Yeah. And as we sit here today, I don't have the exact numbers. But I do know that the sustainable aviation fuel made for biomass actually delivers greater efficiencies, and it will actually help in mileage. But as we sit here right now, and I don't have my cheat sheet in front of me, I don't have the exact numbers. So I'd have to be, you know, we'll have to look that up and provide that. But the main thing is, yeah, they look at how to increase efficiency. But if they can reduce their greenhouse gas emissions by 80, to 90%, by simply utilizing a bio kerosene versus a kerosene, jet fuel, then yeah, that's the big one that they need to start with. And then again, as with anything, there's going to be additional elements to the adoption. But this is something that can have immediate impact without having to bring new technology into the aircraft itself without having to pass on the cost of their consumer of, of completely overhauling the planes. And when you're talking about the scale of in today's world, there's close to 26,000 flights globally every single day. And that's going to more than double by 2050. How do you make immediate impact and grow that impact to me to get net to get to net zero by 2050, really, the only way to get there is is through utilization of sustainable aviation fuel. And the only way really to get to sustainable aviation fuel that's going to allow this type of type of reduction and greenhouse gas emissions is utilizing biomass to do so. So if you look at, you know, what the US has stated in their reports, and the the grand SAF challenge, which outlines the number of gallons of 3 billion gallons by 2030, and 35 billion gallons by 2050. Again, the industry and the support structures are aligning to ensure that this adoption takes place because there's an immediate need, and there's a you know, immediate result. And it doesn't have to hit the consumer, it doesn't have to hit people like you and me who want to take our families on vacation and pay 10x Because I have to pay for the costs of the development of new aircraft, new technology within that aircraft. And as well as any new potential, you know, fuel source or gas source like, you know, that they may be needing. So this is why we look at SAF when we look at these markets, and we look at this poll, and we see that there is a need and we see that we have technology that can solve these issues, or at least help to solve these issues. You know, it's exciting times and we look forward to participating.

Paul Yeager   So it sounds like the argument for what you're doing is more of an environmental one than an economics one.

Warren Brower   Well, I think it's a little We're both obviously we're a company that looks at obviously, we have shareholders and stakeholders that we, that we answer to. So we have to build a company around that. But we also look at this as a transition for companies that we talked about currently satisfying the need utilizing existing jet fuel that can find ways to introduce this, to their end user bring about new skill sets, make money while doing so, I mean, this is an economic play. And this is why you see incentives lining up, right. This is this is not something that people are doing simply because it makes environmental sense, which it does. But it also will make economic sense, there's going to be an adoption curve, just like with with anything. I mean, if we had this conversation, 100 years ago, we wouldn't be talking about airplanes, right? But yeah, you find a way to take, take the want and need of the consumer, and find a good business plan around that and satisfy the markets. And this is why we're in this business along with doing good. And we can do both. And we will do both. And I think that more companies are understanding that every day,

Paul Yeager   I guess, I'm going to ask again, about your perspective, from United States to where you're sitting in France, it appears that the European market and the European community has a much stronger appetite for moving quicker, and understanding the move to be sustainable, to cut down on emissions and cut down on contributions to greenhouse making greenhouse gases. Is that accurate?

Warren Brower   I would say that the average consumer, the average person here looks at it and sees how it affects them. And it affects their communities. And they have a little bit more of a community based thought process, whether it's in this country or that country. They have, you know, the European Union, as itself looks at this and they look at a quality of life and say, yes, we want to make sure that we're building towards something that is long term and sustainable. And that helps the impact. In the United States, we want to do that. But again, we also we have a very large landmass, we have a lot of people and you're talking about 320 million plus people, different points of view. And we all look at things from our own perspective versus a community one in many cases. I'll say that as an American, I think that often we look at things from you know, our own perspective is that instead of a community based one or even a, moreover, a country based perspective, but I think there's there's areas of opportunities that differentiate are different between the two areas. Here in Europe, they'll look at things like the cars being used, especially in major metropolitan areas, and certain transport that is more ground based and maybe looking at what takes place in poor activity. And they're they're, you know, they're they aren't slow to adopt. They're they're interested in how to adapt properly and look at it from a if we run too fast, are we going to end up making the same? Some of the same decisions? And how will that affect us, where in the United States, there are key areas that I think some of these emerging technologies, and these emerging solutions will play a big role. And I'm going to keep coming back to sustainable aviation fuel, it's something that can be affected today, it's something that can, that can, that the average consumer can look at, say, it makes sense. It doesn't have to be, you know, perfect, doesn't have to get in the way of good. And we can, we can do things and we can see that, okay, this is going to have impact on, you know, these elements, and we can build from there. The US has deployed hydrogen hubs. It has a lot of technology and a lot of innovation around these types of solutions, that it's starting to realize that that you know, it can embrace instead of seeing this technologies go overseas or somewhere else, we start to see that all we have land masses of solar and wind can can play an effective role, hydrogen can play an effective role. And we're starting to see it a little bit differently. And again, we will get to a place in the US where it becomes more of a collective thought process. When we see the results and those results are on the horizon. They're not as far off as people think they are. And and I think that's that's only the main difference between the two perspectives. And the two, you know, the the two regions embracing or adopting different speeds.

Paul Yeager   You set up my next question pretty perfectly right there with what you said. I think when you look at consumer fuels needs in this country, we're looking at electric cars, and we might not even need the I hate to say it the ethanol's of the world we're going to be we're not ever going to be 100% Electric but we're going to be close. The shipping industry is also an area like the airlines There's no electric ships or electric planes, there's still going to be a need for fuel are those the two biggest industries that are always going to have a need for fuel and electric or a technology we don't even understand that's out there is coming to power. Those things.

Warren Brower   Yeah, I would say there's there's three industries that I look at. And I have over now, again, mind you, I've been I've been doing this for, for almost 20 years. So I do have a bit of a skewed perspective as to, you know, certain things, but I also believe it to be a pretty accurate one, I think there's three major industries that are going to be affected by and we'll begin to embrace new fuel sources. The aviation industry, as we already talked about, I think marine maritime industry, especially, you know, port's large shipping, I think they're going to look at things like methanol, there is other opportunities, other fuel sources that they're currently looking at. But I think that's the biggest opportunity there. And large trucking shipping, especially in places like the United States where we don't utilize trains, as much as in other other regions, long haul trucking, is going to look at things like hydrogen, and the reason why they'll look at things like hydrogen is because the size and scope of the batteries required, the the infrastructure for charging, the way involved, those type of things are gonna be very difficult to, to overcome efficiently enough for the large trucking industry, you can see it as kind of a, a fleet vehicle approach where you, you start here, you finish there, and if you have a fuel source at those two places, and you could look at decentralized hydrogen, to be able to satisfy those needs, where fuel cells also provide a, you know, the appropriate weight for these trucks to be efficient. And to get more runtime, I think those are the three industries you're going to see emerge in the coming years. And in the near term. Again, I can't speak to ethanol, I don't belong to that. Guild, I haven't sold I haven't been in that in that range. I think that there's a lot of opportunities in agriculture, obviously. And certain circular economies that can definitely work, especially in certain parts of the US. But I think those are the three sectors that are going to have to look at what are their kind of what are they contributing to greenhouse gas emission today? How can they look at doing something different to less than that. And I think that they're going ahead and some in some new emerging ways, civil aviation fuel being one hydrogen being one. And I think methanol is also an opportunity that you will be hearing more about in the coming years.

Paul Yeager   And the next few years should be interesting. I mean, if the past is any indicative of the future, we certainly have some some crazy things ahead. And I'm excited

Warren Brower   to I'm very excited by it. Because again, many years of, you know, trying to get people to look at things from from both environmental as well as an economic standpoint, and seeing that coming to fruition and seeing industry starting to embrace. It's a very exciting time. And I'm really lucky to be a part of it. And I'm looking forward to helping Haffner energy, you know, excel in, in these all three of the segments that I just mentioned.

Paul Yeager   Lastly, have you been into the countryside of France yet? Does it look like upstate New York at all?

Warren Brower   It's, it's, there are parts of upstate New York that, you know, if you if you were to replace some of the houses, yeah, you would get there. But yeah, it's hard to beat the French countryside in the south of France, let me tell you, as a as a guy who grew up in, in a rural place that I find to be extremely beautiful. And in the Adirondacks, the Finger Lakes region, you know, it's close to my heart. But it's hard to beat the mountainous regions of the Alps in France and certainly hard to hard to beat the coastline in the south. So, you know, I'm really lucky to be here, and I'm very excited to be here.

Paul Yeager   Alright, and I appreciate your time. Thank you so very much.

Warren Brower   I appreciate it. Paul, thank you for your time. And, you know, I appreciate you giving us this opportunity to talk a bit about ourselves.

Paul Yeager   My thanks to Warren Brower of Haffner Energy. Appreciate your time and you for making it to the end of this discussion. New episode comes out next Tuesday. We'll see you then. Bye bye.